You Europeans scare me now

Discussion in 'BOARDANIA' started by Roman_K, Oct 14, 2008.

  1. Roman_K New Member

    Switzerland's Green Power Revolution: Ethicists Ponder Plants' Rights - WSJ.com

    And a few select quotes:

  2. Roman_K New Member

    And to answer a few possible questions:

    No, this isn't a joke.

    I wish it was a joke.
  3. Hsing Moderator

    "You Europeans"? Sure, Switzerland is a part of Europe. Still.
    (Note, Switzerland is not in the EU, which normally is associated with weird sounding laws. Switzerland is still highly neutral.)

    To me it sounds like Switzerland passed quite a few laws recently, on animal and fauna protection and preservation of nature of all sorts, which sounded cool at the time, but weren't played through properly. (The democratic process on such things there is extremely direct if I am not misinformed, which has positive and negative sides...) You'll note that all the quotes have been produced by institutions or people in institutions set in motion by the law as passed (ethics comissions part of the university's administrative powers etc).

    Some of their animal protection laws are unique worldwide, too. You can't keep hamsters alone, for example, and aren't allowed to leave your pet alone for more than eight (or was it six?) hours in one go.
  4. Roman_K New Member

    You are in the same continent. This is enough. You are all doomed. Doomed, I say!
  5. Hsing Moderator

    Feh! :razz:
  6. TamyraMcG Active Member

    I think it just goes to show that it is possible to go to riduculous lengths when trying to do good things. I have almost no respect for organizations like PETA, because so many of their members are so misinformed and have so little respect for fellow humans and their rights. I share some of their values but wish they were more careful to know all the facts before they act. While genetic manipulation is probably a little more dangerous then traditional methods of plant breeding, I think not learning what we can about it would be even more dangerous. But special chemicals to anesthetize a goldfish?, why just not wait until they die on their own, it hardly took anytime at all for the goldfish i had as a kid to meet their end. I'm afraid to even bring one home now. Of course the cats are the main reason.
  7. spiky Bar Wench

    The problem seems to lie in the fact that the ethics lumped plants and animals in the same category, which is ridiculous...

    I have the same problem here which lumps talking to you guys online in the same ethical category as doing medical experiments on people, so in the research involving humans ethics application I have to detail the physical and mental harms you might encounter in talking to me on the internet and any injections I might give... I know its a lot for you guys to cope with but so far all anyone's complained about is the melting of their frontal lobe from one of my bad jokes.
  8. Hsing Moderator

    *lol* *ouch* :lol:
  9. Roman_K New Member

    Doomed!

    Indeed. Or possibly a bit worse...

    By this very leap of... idiocy, I'd say, one should also raise the question regarding microbe dignity. And land dignity. Air dignity wouldn't be a bad idea, either. I mean, we should really consider the dignity of all potentially-sentient and reasoning beings - and possibly kill ourselves due to the sheer amount of guilt we collect when breathing. Those poor microbes and bacteria...

    Heh. A bit simplistic, I agree. Isn't there something like a psychological research category?
  10. mowgli New Member

    Roman, some day I'll lead an army of sentient plants and together we'll overthrow the shackles of human oppression. We'll make you apologize for every genetically modified cob of corn you've ever eaten.

    (That is, if I don't starve to death first. Giving up meat has been painful enough, giving up carrots and potatoes sounds pretty undoable :tongue:)
  11. Roman_K New Member

    *prepares weedkiller*

    Ah, yes, this is where we come to the Food of the Future!

    Protein cubes. We must suffer in the name of ethical treatment of possibly-sentient life.
  12. mowgli New Member

    ... hey, you know they'd do the same for us! :)
  13. Joculator The 'Old' Fool

    You Europeans! Hmmmm. Should the residents of the UK need to be included in these broad generalizations?
    Despite being a member of the EEC, we only seem to be European whenever it suits the government to be so.

    We are a Free State of British Mushrooms, and as such our individual rights are well looked after by our democratically selected leaders.
    That is, if being kept in the dark and fed on a diet of bulls**t fits the criteria of being well cared for.

    It is rumoured that British geneticists are secretly working on plans to create a human that can photosynthesize. Then we will only need, depending on the time of day, oxygen or carbon dioxide and sunlight.
    No doubt the problems concerning abused flora and brutally assaulted fauna will be solved once and for all.
    Except for one of Spiky's jokes once in a while. :D
  14. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Hmmm... Funny actually, this reminds me of a debate that occurred on another board whem we were faced with a bad case of Rabid Vegan. This guy was so virulent about animal rights and so far past any kind of reason that he was basically saying that the human race should be wiped from the face of the earth, and would probably have volunteered to begin it himself on the spot if he hadn't been kicked off the board at that point.

    Anyway, one of the interesting responses to his ranting was a guy who said "well, what proof do you have that vegetables have no soul, no feelings, no sense of self? Just because they don't express it like animals do, who are you to say that it is less cruel to pull a carrot out of the ground than to pull a fish out of water? A few hundred years ago, the world's scientists were convinced that black people had no soul and therefore did not deserve any consideration. Children's rights and animal rights have changed immensely over even just the last century, animal suffering in 1880 was hardly the issue it was in 1980, so who's to say one day we won't discover that plants too feel pain?"

    I'm summing it up a bit, the post was a good couple of pages long, but it did kind of make me think, at the time, and still does a bit...
  15. Gypsy New Member

    Well, If we believed in the sentience and souls of plant-life, then there would be the whole moral debate over who has more of a right to be here. After all, if people morally concede that plants and animals should not be consumed, then we should all just lay down and become compost for them...what could we possibly live off?

    *The rabid vegan thing reminds me of this old movie where people invited a certain guest to dinner, and decided whether that person should live or die, depending on their conduct and point of view during the evening. Most of the time they're killed, and and buried in the garden, where the massive tomatoes start growing. Can never remember the name of that movie. One of the dinner guests was a woman who was vegan, yet didnt eat vegetables because she said they felt pain...
  16. mowgli New Member

    Katcal, this is what would probably happen. (If and when we discover that plants are indeed sentient). Those of us who care about such things will go on a diet of fruit, bread and multivitamins. Everyone else (who currently has no problem eating chickens and cows, for example) will continue as before. I mean, if you're already willing to say "Too bad, so sad" to a chicken, you might as well eat the freaking potato, sentient or otherwise.

    If that ever happens... damn, I'll miss the potatoes!
  17. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Oh this already exists, although I can't quite remember the name of it yet, people who only live on things that have fallen from trees and so-on, so they actually don't take anything from any plant without it naturally letting go first. If I could be bothered, I would google it. But I can't.
  18. mowgli New Member

  19. Roman_K New Member

    Right, now I'm positively certain that the Cult of the Cereal exists somewhere. It's not like it's any more absurd...
  20. mowgli New Member

    Yes, it's called Children of the Corn...
  21. Bradthewonderllama New Member

    The Jain's were right!
  22. mowgli New Member

    Apparently they can eat root vegetables during six out of seven days! (But not potatoes, garlick or onions, ever ... bugger, there would go half of my culinary arsenal! And definitely no latkes!)

    P.S. I know this because I looked them up on Wikipedia. Yes, I'm embarrassed
    Jainism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
  23. Gypsy New Member

    Fruit. Tree. Plant.
    Bread. Wheat. Plant.

    Do they differentiate between trees and plants? If a stalk of wheat can feel pain, it stands to reason that trees do too. Damn, waiting for breakfast to fall off the damn thing may take a while.

    And you're right about the potatoes Mowgli!
  24. spiky Bar Wench

    I say shake the damn tree!!! We'll call it the equivalent of a tummy rub on a dog to get it to give the ball back... The analogy makes as much sense as anything else in this thread.
  25. mowgli New Member

    Spiky, I like your analogy :)

    Gypsy - to grant a bit of sanity to Jains and other fruitarians - their philosophy is that when you eat an apple, for example, you don't kill (or hurt) the tree - you just take something that the tree would have naturally discarded.

    As opposed to eating a carrot or a potato - since those are the plant's ROOTS, you'd have to kill the plant in order to eat off it. Ergo, you commit murder.

    Now, what surprises me is that Jains are allowed to eat seeds. Technically, by eating the seeds, you stop the plant's "circle of life" - not killing the plant, necessarily, but definitely killing its children. Whereas, the fruitarians (I think) would encourage you to eat the fruit, and then discard the seed, so that it has a chance to sprout. Or, eat the seeds whole, so that a few have a chance to get pooped out and make it back to earth.

    Now if that amount of consideration for your fellow living creature doesn't make your head explode, I don't know what will!
    1 people like this.
  26. Gypsy New Member

    Thanks for the clarification, and that's a good point about the seeds.

    Hehehe, thanks for the visual!

    Umm..making sense of spiky's analogies?:smile:
  27. randywine Member

    Loved this little snippet from the fruitarian website:

    "If you eat cooked foods and in particular flesh of animals, then your body is automatically poisoned and you condemned to develop in yourself a lot of low quality of thoughts, ...".

    Whereas I have nothing against any personal insanity that hurts no one but the perpetrator themselves, I must ask: If the fruitarians are so much more enlightened and their quality of thought is so much better than an old carnivore like me ("Yes, I did say I want a Blue steak.") why does the overall grammar and use of language on their badly designed site suck quite so much...

    Or is that one of them 'Low quality of thoughts'? :razz:

    Randywine (on his 12th day of his birthday!!!)
  28. Katcal I Aten't French !

    No, Randywine, it is obviously designed so as not to harm or offend the electrons that make up the site by flowing down the intertubes... Duh!
  29. randywine Member

    Geez...Duh! indeed - Electarian - we don't use electrons unless they have fallen naturally from the atomic nuclei.

    :lol:

    R.
  30. Roman_K New Member

    Katcal, Randywine, stop giving people ideas. You just know that someone, somewhere, might read this and actually take it up as a Pathway to Enlightenment.

    Then again, less electricity consumption, and much less a chance of encountering said person on the net...

    Nevermind. Keep up the good work!
  31. Katcal I Aten't French !

    yep, and more room in the tubes!
  32. Roman_K New Member

    And less cars on the road, too.
  33. Katcal I Aten't French !

    well, yes... metal does have feelings, after all...
  34. Roman_K New Member

    I was thinking more along the lines of the electron slaves in the battery, but that works, too.
  35. mowgli New Member

    ::spreads incendiary fliers among the electrons in Roman's computer, encouraging them to stand up to The Man and go on strike::
  36. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Look, guys, I'm all in favour for fooling around and saying daft things and all that, but calling Roman a man - let alone THE Man - is pushing a bad joke too far... :bunny:
  37. Roman_K New Member

    Being in the military, I'm one of the closest things to a representative of The Man around. And regarding the doubts you raise toward my maleness, I assure you that I have access to large weaponry stocks that can easily prove it.
  38. mazekin Member

    And they say size doesn't matter...:D
  39. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Ah now you see, a Man™ would have said something along the lines of "and I have a large missile in my pants to prove it", whereas you see, you unsurprisingly allude to a technological proof, proving once more my dear Roman that you are an incurable Geek. :bunny: And that's different, but please note, I didn't say any less good. In fact, several theories exist that prove that if mankind was in any kind of immediate global danger, the Geeks would be the ones to save us all. :pirate: And yes, that even includes the scenarios that end with a small handful of survivors repopulating the globe.

    Hmm, you know, funnily enough (says she, cunningly changing the subject), that guy I met who was from the same town as you, Roman, he was a missile engineer in the army... And a vegetarian. Which for some strange reason he didn't seem to see as contradictory. Oh well... :lol:
  40. mowgli New Member

    'Sright, Katcal! For is it not said, "the geek shall inherit the Earth?"

    ...oh, and I don't eat meat but I'd kill in self-defense. Or anyone's defense.
  41. Roman_K New Member

    Now, see, I view that as plain vulgar and sexist. A man doesn't *have* to be an idiot. Regardless of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary...

    Oh no, no. This isn't about technology, silly Katcal. This is about threatening someone with guns! Do note the difference.

    Of course. People are a menace to the world, and must be cleansed. Surely your potted plants have told you that.

    Seriously, though - being a vegetarian has nothing to do with being a pacifist. If one truly believes that killing a living being simply to provide for food is wrong, it in no way prevents killing a living being to protect another living being.

    The problem starts when you're a member of Animal Liberation Front, and harming the talking living being to protect the mooing living being isn't a problem for you, either.
  42. Hsing Moderator

    Unfortunately, the Bilble translations of the Western World had a typo in them, and have since then been misunderstand.
  43. Ba Lord of the Pies

    Ba remembers that movie! The Last Supper.
  44. Roman_K New Member

  45. Katcal I Aten't French !

    Nuts. And misshapen nuts at that...
  46. randywine Member

    Yep, sad and pathetic init.

    R.
  47. Hsing Moderator

    Roman, the story behind this is that the traders, international ones from all over the EU who, in part, suddenly had new markets due to the dropping borders and all, demanded that the EU gives out guidelines on, say, how many cucumbers of what size should fit into the box, and what shouldn't be allowed to be sold as a proper cucumber, or something. They wanted legal "backup" in case they were suddelnly being sold wares that didn't fit their standards.

    They were afraid their new business partners would shower them in oddly shaped vegetables they couldn't complain about or send back. So, if individual shop owners complain about these regulations they tend to leave out that A) the same trade, only a level higher in the hierarchy, ordered them in the first place, and B) the regulations the trade then went on to set up for themselves are just as specific.

    So, the EU gave the ordered guidelines out, the trade made their own and ignored those of the EU, and now the EU cancels most of theirs. Of course it would have been easier to just tell the trade, "make your own guidelines, it's not our job", but still most of the context is usually left out that they were asked for by private enterprise and meant to ease their worries. Not a grand deed still, but still it has a bit of a different flavour within its original context.
  48. Roman_K New Member

    Standardization is nearly always demanded by some sort of internationally-active body, Hsing. I didn't doubt that it was either some kind of EU trader consortium or this or that ministry acting at the requests of the aforementioned.

    This doesn't change the fact that this should have never been a national level issue in the first place. Each and every store, or chain of stores, or trader... each and every one has his own set standards, which are detailed to the seller of the produce before the sale contract is even set.

    This doesn't even ease the fears of anyone. Quite the contrary, five seconds of thinking would have brought the committee (and yes, I'm sure it was a committee) that set these regulations to realize that it only brought more trouble than it was worth. Not to mention it being utterly stupid BS.

    I mean, what's next? Make an ISO for cucumbers? Sheesh.
  49. spiky Bar Wench

    Hell you don't need the EU to do this. The major supermarkets will only buy fruit and vege of a certain size and shape. Farmers won't get paid for anything else... The EU probably ended up with this cos no 1 supermarket had enough power anymore to dictate size/shape but now the Eu has settled into an oligopoly consumer market then the retailer can start making their own demands on suppliers without government regulation.

    Ah the free market, making bananas yellow and curved.
  50. mowgli New Member

    No more humerously-shaped vegetables? :sad:

    That's just depressing! I want my carrots anthropomorphosized, darn it!
  51. Saccharissa Stitcher

    Inna, I hope you at least take iron supplements.
  52. mowgli New Member

    Up until yesterday, I've been taking those watermelon-sized prenatal pills, that supposedly contain the whole Periodic Table and taste suspiciously of raw flour. (Because that's all they probably are :tongue:)

    Yesterday I had to stop because I ran out!

    Hey, Avgi, your hair is straight again :)
  53. Saccharissa Stitcher

    Well, I am back in Greece which is not nearly as humid as Margate was.

Share This Page