Okay, I received a clacks about this today but don't quite know how to answer it on my own. Some people here still keep an eye on the old site, at least from time to time, and at least one of them is wondering when it will be okay to post on that site again. I was pretty sure we'd made this a clear policy stance from the get go, that if you joined this site before the official date of the move you'd agreed to abandon the old site completely. Completey, full stop. I'm aware that they have a moderator. I'm also aware that some old familiar faces have turned up on the old boards from time to time, and I'm sure some of them might be old friends. I'm aware that the old introduction thread I'd made is still in use, and so links to our site are still immediately available. If they want to find us, they can. I'm also aware that, appearantly immediately after they gained a moderator, a lot of our problem posters over there disappeared and the original recipient of a Coventry petition reappeareed. I understand that person's an 'oldie' on those boards now. My personal stance is unchanged. We shouldn't even go back there to look, much less post. Some of our key reasons for leaving are more prevalent now than ever. They have the spam under control, but one of the oldest trolls is now a member in good standing. To me, that community has to be left alone. With that in mind, anyone who joined this community before the official move date should still be expected to uphold the community decision, and breaking ranks to post on the old site is a big no-no. However, it IS a community decision, so I'm not going to try and speak for everyone. The question was put to me that the old site seems to have improved, and that the person involved wanted to know if it would be okay to post on both this site and that one, as there were topics they wanted to post there. I've said why not post them here? I think, if only for one or two people on the old site, it's still 'contaminated'. Posting there would violate some social contracts. If the community disagrees, then I'll go along with the community's standard, but it's not a decision for one man to make. Edit: For clarification's sake, the person raising the question was indeed a member of the old site, joined here before the official move date etc. I felt since it was a PM that it wasn't appropriate to say who had asked, so its up to them if they want to state their case any better than I reiterated it.
Don't want to see that website anymore, myself, and in my opinion, one can't dance in two weddings, either.
I think, given the old board's 'clientelle', that anyone who has been there and experienced his behaviour, shouldn't really want to go back. In a small way, it's almost an endorsement of his behaviour. edit: by him I mean the freakoid arsenal fan
Generally, I think it's best if we avoid the other board. I think it's a case of out of sight out of mind. I think if some of the old faces start showing up there it *could* start raising trouble agian. Which I'd rather avoid. I think people can post on more than one message board, but just alot of people on that message board are, as we know from past experience, happy to waste lots of time and energy to piss us off. I'd rather avoid anything that can remind them of us. I'd like to think that people *would* rather post stuff here than there, but what the hey. Although, I'm not completely comfortable with the idea, I guess if you want to post there under a name that doesn't connect you with this board nothing can stop you, but i think that would lead to much more trouble than it's worth.
True, if anyone's that determined to post there and doesn't want to step on any toes here, then you could always register a new name and even if anyone else here goes looking, we wouldn't know. still, that's not really the issue at hand
I have less of a principal problem with members returning to that site than an apprehension of what it will result in. Let me explain. See, I hadn't checked there for months, but as I've sent out plenty pf PMs before we moved and wanted to check which oldies had picked them up, I logged back in on the site a few weeks ago and looked around a little in the hope to see some of the old members around. The first thing I stumbled across was a thread that had been bumped, coincidentally, where a once obvious troll was verbally attacked by the crowd. By [i:60fc3884dc]"once obvious" [/i:60fc3884dc]I mean that at the time, the signature of the "newbit" as well as his appearance along with [i:60fc3884dc]half a douzen identical twins, all with provocing to nonsensical signatures and identically harmless-stupid-unreadable questions at the same day made it clear what was going on to anyone there at the time[/i:60fc3884dc]. You know what I mean. Now someone digged out the thread for what reason ever, and instantly someone ignoring that it was almost three yeras old popped up to defend the poor chap against, basically, us, despite the fact thet we weren't present anymore, and also instantly some of the "new old guard" popped up to happily explain that all the "[i:60fc3884dc]people behaving like nazis are gone",[/i:60fc3884dc] yay, rejoice. The people still, or again, there, appear to be more fixated on us than we are on them. A few months ago, I wasn't even that sure of myself anymore to be honest, but now I am. And, you see, I just can't see some of us posting there without provoking something, and finally dragging it here. It is bound to happen, sooner or later, in some way. It's the internet, mind you. And that would harm this place. I can't imagine any message board asking it's long term members for long not to post in a certain place, but this is what I see happening.
Mm, well, while that was extremely well said, and ultimately a very apt point, it's an issue i was still hoping to avoid. Yes, there are parties known and unknown to us that we don't want paying any more attention to this site that they appear to be at present. Live and let live, and just ignore them is the current policy and I definately see no reason to even open it for debate. I think that unless I, Doors, or a few others who would instantly be identified as our cronies were to go over there and post something baiting the 'new old guard', we're actually fairly safe from that sort of blow back. Still, it's a concen that is one of the main reasons for the 'no going back' policy in the first place. While it probably wouldn't be relevant for anyone who was 'neutral' in the flame wars, the policy really shouldn't apply just to some of us and not to others.
I can see why this should ideally be avoided, but as its my main reason for apprehensions of any sorts concerning that policy I failed to do so. I totally agree to the "live and let live" policy, and think people can post whatever they want there. But with a steady number of people acting on both places, and interacting with each one involved, I see the risk of the old conflicts being re-imported into this community. Which would be sad. Maybe really ignoring the place means putting a blind eye to who posts over there and who doesn't, and rely on people's ability to catch up sooner or later, or have the sensibility not to drag any schmooze back and forth. I really don't know for sure. One thing has changed, though: One of the old arguments for the policy was that you couldn't be a part of this community and be, at the same time, on good terms with those who, without exaggeration, tried to [i:c269afcc57]destroy [/i:c269afcc57]it. I mean, someone posting on that place for a while after our move spent[i:c269afcc57] hours each day [/i:c269afcc57]on messing the board up. The archives are still a mess (which is one of the reasons why their newbits still get confused over old threads, and not only their newbits). Officially, these nutters aren't part of that community anymore, and we are "only" dealing with people who state they don't like the oldbies of this community. If that has to result in the same policy, I'm not sure.
I would have it known that it was me who PMd Garner about wanting to post both on the old board & this one. I was indeed a 'neutral' during all the crap we had on the old board with spammers/ trolls. My main reasons for leaving the old board were 1) out of loyalty to everyone on the new board, 2) the old board was being ruined by the aforementioned trolls. But a recent visit to our old stomping ground surprised me, as it is much better now, since it has some moderation & vitually all trolls are gone. I wouldn't ever want to post under another name, as that is misleading & I shouldn't have to hide who I am. So basically I am looking for the permission of the board here to post on both sites. I spent 4 years, every day, on that site, and still feel part of that community as well as this one. I don't want to start any feuds over this though.
Far be it from me to criticise, but I think this thread sounds a little desperate. It sounds as though you're saying 'you can't post in places we don't like.' On another forum I post on, the same happened, with a small community leaving a dead forum. That dead forum merged with a bigger one. At first, we thought that the other forum was full of idiots (and it still is) and we urged each other not the post there, even to cause trouble. But it doesn't work. What's the harm in someone posting on another board? It's not like they are saying 'up yours Unseen' are they? They just want to visit more than one Discworld message board, and I can't see anything wrong with that. In my opinion (and I know I#m hardly a major member here, so it's a humble one), you shouldn't try to dictate to people where not to post, if you do that, you're as bad as the people you're trying to avoid. [quote:7b1ff15454="TheJackal"]I would have it known that it was me who PMd Garner about wanting to post both on the old board & this one. I was indeed a 'neutral' during all the crap we had on the old board with spammers/ trolls. My main reasons for leaving the old board were 1) out of loyalty to everyone on the new board, 2) the old board was being ruined by the aforementioned trolls. But a recent visit to our old stomping ground surprised me, as it is much better now, since it has some moderation & vitually all trolls are gone. I wouldn't ever want to post under another name, as that is misleading & I shouldn't have to hide who I am. So basically I am looking for the permission of the board here to post on both sites. I spent 4 years, every day, on that site, and still feel part of that community as well as this one. I don't want to start any feuds over this though.[/quote:7b1ff15454]You shouldn't have to start any feuds. If someone is trying to tell you (someone who you don't know in real life and has no order over you whatsoever) not to post somewhere you want to, I think it's quite clear where it is you should be posting on.
[quote:34d7cddb32="drunkymonkey"]You shouldn't have to start any feuds. If someone is trying to tell you (someone who you don't know in real life and has no order over you whatsoever) not to post somewhere you want to, I think it's quite clear where it is you should be posting on.[/quote:34d7cddb32] Your opinion seems to be very similar to mine, but you see I've 'known' these members for years now and respect them to give their opinions, even if those comments I cannot agree with
[quote:ba5cd08b3c="TheJackal"][quote:ba5cd08b3c="drunkymonkey"]You shouldn't have to start any feuds. If someone is trying to tell you (someone who you don't know in real life and has no order over you whatsoever) not to post somewhere you want to, I think it's quite clear where it is you should be posting on.[/quote:ba5cd08b3c] Your opinion seems to be very similar to mine, but you see I've 'known' these members for years now and respect them to give their opinions, even if those comments I cannot agree with[/quote:ba5cd08b3c]I agree with that too. Perhaps I sounded a bit angry.
it's not that you sounded a bit angry, but rather just that you don't quite seem to know the situation you're commenting on. we've never said 'you can't post on other discworld forums'. that would be ridiculous. however, for a number of reasons, many still valid, we agreed not to go back to the one we'd left. we also said that rule should never apply to people who join this site later on, because of course they weren't here to make that decision. it would be like us telling them where to post, instead of agreeing as a group not to go back to an old site. no one here is talking about going to post over thre to stir up trouble. that was, from day one, a forbidden thing. the issue is that by going over there to post, some of us would automatically provoke trouble even if we simply said 'hi, i've been gone for a while but i wanted to say that i thought Thud whas the best book yet'. if i did that, it wouldn't cause trouble from people who disagreed with my opinion, but from people who disagree with ME and my right to exist, basicly. now, seeing as Jackal's spoken up, i feel kind of obliged to point out that he'd had some difficulty in understanding the 'no going back to the old boards' thing in the first place, but that eventually he did agree to our reasoning, or so i'd assumed. I appreciate that he asked if we thought it'd be okay before going to post anything over there. It's a valid question and deserves consideration. I think the main objectives we've heard so far are, by and large, not directly relevant to someone like Jackal going to post, but the issue still stands, the entire group of us agreed not to, so it's a bit odd if ANY of us break ranks, even if its someone who wasn't so tangibly involved in the polarizing issues. As has been said already, going back now in a way legitimizes the tactics of the person(s) who tried to destroy our community, and in a way is disrespectful to the unity and community that we struggled to forge and uphold. that starts to apply to people who weren't so involved earlier once they agree to it. and yet, at the end of the day, it's a free internet. you can go and post where you like. so can Jackal. I'd rather he not be a part of both boards, but I'd also not like to see him leave this site for good if he decided he really did want to post on the other one and couldn't feel free to post on both. so, let's give it a day or so to see what folks have to say on monday (weekends are usually a bad time to try and resolve this sort of thing, as lots of people only check the boards from work) and see if sentiment might change a bit given we know who we're talking about now.
The main problem, as I see it, is that the ones we called trolls (and worse things) that are now 'regulars' on the old board would, more or less instantly, jump on any one of 'us' if we came back. I mean, they already did it once, but from another board. They WILL see it as an act of aggresion, no matter whom of us it is that goes back, because we are the bad guys in their eyes. Or maybe we're the good guys against their own baddness. Anyhow, posting there would be equal to standing in a paddock full of bulls waving a red sheet. No matter if they have a mod or not, they'll see posting at 'their' board as an inviation to come posting here, and most of us don't want that. At least I don't think they do. I like to think that I can see both sides to this, I mean, that board was the first online community I ever joined, it holds a special place to me. But also, that community moved here now, we gave our home up but WE are still the same. At least I hope we are, if we aren't, this is a lost cause anytways. I confess to visiting the old boards, partly just to look (morbid curiosity and all that) and partly because my stories are still up there, and I hadn't saved all of them on the comp, bad me. But I didn't feel the need to post there, anymore, because none of those people are my 'friends' as it is. All those I counted as 'friends' moved here so... But this is just my opinion, you are all free to have your own.* *as long as you remember that my opinion is the best one.
I haven't looked at the old board for months, since last year probably, so I wouldn't even notice if anyone did post on there. I doesn't bother me if anyone wants to post on there. I'd be a bit surprised if any of our core members actually [i:4fa90f4e7c]did[/i:4fa90f4e7c] start posting on there, and I'd probably think of them in a different light because of it because that would mean they aren't the people I thought they were - i.e. people who seperate posting on message boards and their other day to day life, calling the latter 'real life'. Still, from a purely logical sense, like I said I never look at the other board anyway so the only way this could affect me is if someone came on here to deliberately cause trouble because of what one of our members posted over there, which still doesn't matter from my point of view because they'd still be a troll wherever they came from and for whatever reason. So I guess I'm saying do whatever you feel like, whatever floats your boat, whatever makes you happy.
I agree with Mal. Though I don't have any inclination to myself, I can understand why someone would possibly want to revisit the old boards.
[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]it's not that you sounded a bit angry, but rather just that you don't quite seem to know the situation you're commenting on.[/quote:98d770e484]Not entirely true, by asking around, I've built up a picture of what happened on the TP boards. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]we've never said 'you can't post on other discworld forums'. that would be ridiculous. however, for a number of reasons, many still valid, we agreed not to go back to the one we'd left. we also said that rule should never apply to people who join this site later on, because of course they weren't here to make that decision. it would be like us telling them where to post, instead of agreeing as a group not to go back to an old site. [/quote:98d770e484]Wasn't there that thing about not posting on the Stamps board as well? But what you are trying to say, is that whatever happens, you're going to visit the official Terry Pratchett message boards again, and you don't like it when other members do. Well, isn't that a bit like direspecting their ability to make decisions for themselves? Let's put it this way, tens of people sign up on the TP boards every day. It's a constantly changing community. I know the kind of things that you're saying, because as I've said I've been through it on another board, and it doesn't solve anything by asking people not the post on the site that you don't particularly like. It's the official boards after all, and if these boards are slow any time of day (which, regrefully they have been) then I can't see why you can't have a gander at the other boards. It's not like dancing with the enemy. Fair enough, some of the people there might be prats, and might say 'I thought you left' and be all immature, but that doesn't mean anything, because we class these people as idiots. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]no one here is talking about going to post over thre to stir up trouble. that was, from day one, a forbidden thing. the issue is that by going over there to post, some of us would automatically provoke trouble even if we simply said 'hi, i've been gone for a while but i wanted to say that i thought Thud whas the best book yet'. if i did that, it wouldn't cause trouble from people who disagreed with my opinion, but from people who disagree with ME and my right to exist, basicly.[/quote:98d770e484]I wasn't suggesting that anyone was going to stir up trouble. I was just talking about another forum (it happened to be a Half Life 2 one) where that did happen. If people disagree with your right to exist, then they're idiots. They're best left ignored. It's the internet, you tend to bump into a few proper charlies throughout the time you go on. Lord knows, I have. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]now, seeing as Jackal's spoken up, i feel kind of obliged to point out that he'd had some difficulty in understanding the 'no going back to the old boards' thing in the first place, but that eventually he did agree to our reasoning, or so i'd assumed. I appreciate that he asked if we thought it'd be okay before going to post anything over there. It's a valid question and deserves consideration. [/quote:98d770e484] Can't argue with that. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]I think the main objectives we've heard so far are, by and large, not directly relevant to someone like Jackal going to post, but the issue still stands, the entire group of us agreed not to, so it's a bit odd if ANY of us break ranks, even if its someone who wasn't so tangibly involved in the polarizing issues. [/quote:98d770e484] I'd actually like to know the reasoning behind not going back. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]As has been said already, going back now in a way legitimizes the tactics of the person(s) who tried to destroy our community, and in a way is disrespectful to the unity and community that we struggled to forge and uphold. that starts to apply to people who weren't so involved earlier once they agree to it. [/quote:98d770e484]I can't see how this person you speak of would win because you do go back. It's not like this board was a failure. The whole reason s/he was doing what they were doing was to get you to bugger off anyway. So, if anything, you'd be likely to get them a bit agitated. But that's not causing trouble, if they are offended, then they can shut up and deal with it. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]and yet, at the end of the day, it's a free internet. you can go and post where you like. so can Jackal. I'd rather he not be a part of both boards, but I'd also not like to see him leave this site for good if he decided he really did want to post on the other one and couldn't feel free to post on both. [/quote:98d770e484]Makes sense. [quote:98d770e484="Garner"]so, let's give it a day or so to see what folks have to say on monday (weekends are usually a bad time to try and resolve this sort of thing, as lots of people only check the boards from work) and see if sentiment might change a bit given we know who we're talking about now.[/quote:98d770e484]Right you are.
I never once said I objected to people posting on the stamps forum. In fact, I found it an excellent way to try and safety valve a core element of the old boards that clashed with the established culture there. anyway, some of your comments CLEARLY show that you don't really know what used to go on in the bad old days, even if you think you've got a good understanding of it. I dont mean to be patronizing but, well, you don't get to wear lilac in your hair today, okay? you're attributing a few attitudes and stances to me and the history of this community that aren't accurate or in some cases utterly wrong. this is not to say that your opinions are worthless, but just so you know if we don't respond to them positively, it's not because you had bad ideas but your comments were made on bad data.
stupid hitting the send button before finishing what i wanted to say: reasons for not going back include, but are not limited to: - community solidarity - avoiding unpleasant people that have carried on a vendetta against us for five years - unwritten social contracts - written agreements and consensus These have been stated more clearly than i can reiterate in previous posts. please reread the thread if you need to, but hsing's posts seem to have hit on most of it, and i'm sure anyone else can weigh in again with specifics if they are still needed, i've got a tendancy of just thinking i explained stuff properly. if nothing else, consider that there IS a community consensus, that even teh most mild mannered of us would hold a person's return to the old boards as behavior that warranted a reevaluation of them as a person.
There was indeed never a kind of "ban" on the Stamps forum, not even a suggestion people shouldn't post there. We've got some regulars that are regulars over there. Some of them were linked there by Garner, if I remember correctly. Besides that I can only repeat what I wrote in this thread. Back then, keeping posting there would have meant striking up a dialogue with someone who spent months of his life with trying to mess up the old board. I mean, your regular troll annoys the crap out of people with a few posts per day, but what happened there was simply absolutely bizarre. In an old thread I think I compared keeping posting there with not only making a creepy aqcuaintance, but with having a friendly chap with the bloke who just made you move out of your house by throwing in the windows - every night. It appears said crapheads are gone. Erhem. That changes the situation a bit, or at least enough to re-discuss the issue. My only apprehensions are as aforementioned in this thread. But also as said, I suppose you have, in the end, leave it to each person. Seeing how long Jackal has been around, he'd probably know enough about all old faces to know how to weigh any comments. I clearly remember that, in the original discussion about this, we stated that, should a new community come to live there, and should Regicide and the likes be gone, we might have to rediscuss the issue anyway. We're not too stubborn to take changes into account. (By the way, looking back, I think that at the time it was a very healthy decision for this board, because if we hadn't concentrated on this place and moved on, but instead offered this as a might-be-opportunity, I'm not sure this site would have made it beyond it's first steps. ) I'd like to add, though, that like Garner, I wouldn't want to see anyone leave because of this, so I guess that it'll just happen as it will happen and then we'll see what happens... It's a great complimet from the Jackal to the rest of us to actually want to know our opinion about this.
I don't post in the old site... but for thesis purposes I am required to check out whats going on there, although I am pretty lacks about this and only go there once a month-ish. I don't post there and I don't comment here about whats going on there. They are two separate places and I treat them as such, I'm aware of the history so the fact that I have to visit the old site is for my own purposes and so as not to make it a community issue I am not involved in the old board, I merely look at what gets posted there to follow its development rather than out of personal interest... (Can't you tell I feel slightly guilty about having to even go there neverlone if I actually posted and joined that community... oh the shame )
So, if it was a real world place, would you be wearing a trenchcoat, a wig and dark glasses? [size=9:9afb95a33d]"Hey... You... Shhhhhhhhhh! ...Yes, you! "[/size:9afb95a33d]
If someone DOES start posting on the old Board... and DOES end up at the crux of some nastiness... and the nastiness DOES end up following them here, to the Unseen Board... ...wouldn't our moderators be able to nip in the bud the kind of insanity that drove us away in the first place? Or would it be unfair to the moderators to burden them with that kind of damage control?
[quote:c6dd87910c="mowgli"]If someone DOES start posting on the old Board... and DOES end up at the crux of some nastiness... and the nastiness DOES end up following them here, to the Unseen Board... ...wouldn't our moderators be able to nip in the bud the kind of insanity that drove us away in the first place? Or would it be unfair to the moderators to burden them with that kind of damage control?[/quote:c6dd87910c] They would, but yes, it's unfair to them. Banning would rest upon Mal's shoulders, and cosmetic control would take a lot of time. Jackal: If you feel you must post on the other boards, I don't know if you had a link to this board in your signature..., if so, i would suggest changing or removing it. I would strongly avoid any mention of this board on there. If there is a topic that interests you on the old boards, don't hesitate to post it here (Like Garner suggested) to get our opinions about it. Most of the people I got along with on the old board moved here. The others moved to the Stamps forum. (By the way, Garner (and I think Buzzfloyd) asked to not post there in a specific thread, because the stamps mods asked to not bring the feud over there... No-one ever told anyone to not post there) I have no connection to the old board besides the archives.
I have checked it out now and again myself since we've moved here- mainly to check old threads, but like some others have said I have felt a little bit guilty doing so! Personally I haven't wanted to post anything –as has been said there’s no- one there that I really want to be in contact with. But that's just me. If the other board was still unmoderated I can see how there would be issues with people posting over there. The old trolls would probably have a field day!- I don’t know much about moderating (actually nothing!) but if the mods are about- Would the trolling, or ability to troll- not be less of a threat? If someone wants to post over there I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. I know there are principals to withhold, and a general decision made by members of the community when Mal first put together the boards but essentially there's also free will. I think ‘fair- play’ to the fact that he asked the question from the mods here. It is a good idea to gauge reaction amongst people here to see how the feel. Like Jackel says I don’t think that he should have to go there and post using a different name. It was done before by some of the old trolls – does no one remember the countless threads trying to work out who was who in terms of alias’s? This is a great community, I like being here, as I’ve said before I enjoy the craic and discussion, but personally I‘m not going to start telling someone where they can and can not go on the internet.
What I fear would happen, even with one who was neutral in the... issues we had over the years, is that the interest of the old trolls would spark anew. It would start with little things, comments made to Jackal, asking him for his opinion on us and so on and so forth, and would probably go on nasty jokes about "escaping our evil will". And will it end with that? Consider that. I don't care about them talking about us, about this board etc. I care about them doing more than talking. If one of us who wasn't neutral started posting there again, then it would indeed be akin to waving a great big red sheet in front of a very, very angry bull. The question is, what would happen if it was just someone familiar who, while didn't openly identify with us, didn't openly identify with them, either? We're talking about obsessed people here, don't forget. Obsessed enough to spend hours each and every day to trash the old boards. Keep that in mind. Personally, I'm not sure if piquing the interest of the old trolls is worth the risk.
The issue is simple - when we as a community moved from there to here, there were no "neutrals" - even those of us who had not been personally attacked, rather than just being annoyed and frustrated by the troll-bombing - we were showing our solidarity with the senior members of the community who [i:1066d4234f]were[/i:1066d4234f] being attacked - going back and posting on the old site now would be a weakening of resolve - especially given the behaviour of the moderator who so miraculously appeared - if I had been that moderator, my first action would have been to deregister and blacklist Juggicide and the others - but no, they were allowed to stay on the board. No-one is (as far as I am aware) advocating a blanket ban on posting on other Pratchett boards - I hope not, since I occasionally post on alt.fan.pratchett! - but the Harper Collins board is a special case for those of us who moved - newbits, of course, can post where they like.
[quote:ec646d28f7="Roman_K"]waving a great big red sheet in front of a very, very angry bull.[/quote:ec646d28f7] Completely out of context: I've heard the colour doesn't matter, since cows are colour blind.
Honestly said, if there was a poll, I'd vote to let people post over there and find out what happens... And then meet decisions basing on that experience and adapt. For the following reason: This seems to have the potential to become the kind of discussion we should get rid of as quickly as possible. If we have, one day, the first real row between members - the sort of row we want to avoid with our "policy", not a good honest quarrel - then it shouldn't have been us who started it. Lets take the way that harms the community the least. That's what policy is there for.
[quote:a49e5fd036="Hsing"]Honestly said, if there was a poll, I'd vote to let people post over there and find out what happens... And then meet decisions basing on that experience and adapt. For the following reason: This seems to have the potential to become the kind of discussion we should get rid of as quickly as possible. If we have, one day, the first real row between members - the sort of row we want to avoid with our "policy", not a good honest quarrel - then it shouldn't have been us who started it. Lets take the way that harms the community the least. That's what policy is there for.[/quote:a49e5fd036] First of all, "let" people post over there is not an issue - no-one as far as I am aware has suggested that Mal should check the HC board and blacklist anyone found posting there. "And find out what happens" - dangerous - certain people took it upon themselves to make the board unworkable, simply because they took an unreasonable dislike to the way that self-policing of the board had evolved and was being operated by the senior members (and I am speaking as someone who has been slapped down on both the old and the new board!). These people were then allowed by the moderator who suddenly turned up after we had moved to continue on the board - I suppose you could call it spoils of war - I feel that going back and posting on HC could risk them deciding to invade us - and this is in addition to the implied agreement when we moved - the HC site is no longer somewhere that we want anything to do with! (I suspect Grace might have something to say about that sentence!)
[quote:07d6412473="Pixel"] First of all, "let" people post over there is not an issue - no-one as far as I am aware has suggested that Mal should check the HC board and blacklist anyone found posting there.[/quote:07d6412473] Indeed. I think that's the gist of what I reapetedly said on this thread, that noone ever suggested chasting anyone. I'm not quite certain what you're saying here. Just asking out of interest: If we agree that posting over there should have no actual consequences in terms of board policy measurements for the person in question over here, what exactly do you suggest if you are -if I got your previous posts right- validly against it? [quote:07d6412473="Pixel"][snip] These people were then allowed by the moderator who suddenly turned up after we had moved to continue on the board - I suppose you could call it spoils of war - I feel that going back and posting on HC could risk them deciding to invade us - and this is in addition to the implied agreement when we moved - the HC site is no longer somewhere that we want anything to do with![snip][/quote:07d6412473] That "[i:07d6412473]we[/i:07d6412473]" does not seem to include all of us anymore. [i:07d6412473]I[/i:07d6412473] personally don't want to go back there. [i:07d6412473]You[/i:07d6412473] don't want to go back there. The Jackal in this case, whom I would regard as also a member of this community obviously is playing with the thought of posting there. That's why this thread exists. And as much as I do [i:07d6412473]not [/i:07d6412473]want to go there and post, I wouldn't want to see anyone leaving from here because of the entire business.
[quote:031b41e6d4="Hsing"]So, if it was a real world place, would you be wearing a trenchcoat, a wig and dark glasses? [size=9:031b41e6d4]"Hey... You... Shhhhhhhhhh! ...Yes, you! "[/size:031b41e6d4][/quote:031b41e6d4] Yes thats me... incognito.
I'm a bit worried about the opinion floating about that anyone who posts again on the old board will be thought less of here in the future.
Not anyone, just the core members who moved here with a clear purpose and reason. People can't help how they feel.
Posted on Garners behalf: [b:25f0512372]Garner:[/b:25f0512372] [quote:25f0512372]"We moved here to get away from people who're still on the old boards, or at least their spiritual compatriots since we lack the burden of proof. If you joined this site before the official date of the move, it was understood that you were fully aware of why we had made a new site, enough of the history to understand it, and agreed with the reasoning and the need. Furthermore, it was made clear that such an understanding was expected of you. Times haven't changed all that much, at least not enough to remove all our reservations. There are people on that old site that still actively despise us and, as best they can, campaign against us. Anyone who joined this site to escape that kind of persecution who would now go back when it's still going on would be thought less of, just as you would surely think less of a friend who decided to go play with the neighborhood bullies that take your milk money. People who joined after that official move date aren't expected to share the community stance on the old site or the old antagonists. It's hoped that they would be of like minds with us on at least general issues if they wanted to stick around and be a part of this site, but nothign more than that. They've got no reason to take sides in old fights that never involved them. They're not so much 'neutral' as just 'not involved' at all. Now, for someone who was 'neutral' during those old fights, you can't expect to stay 'neutral' if you came here under that understanding and knowing why we left. You made a choice. Now, no one ever asked you to sign a contract about how you'd behave once you got here, but most of us shared that understanding that makes up our social contract about the old boards. Just like the old coventry petitions - if you didn't sign it and everyone else did, you'd still be an outsider if you maintained good relations with the trolls we shunned. Staying 'neutral' as a matter of policy doesn't mean you can stay friends with every side in a polar issue."[/quote:25f0512372]
What date exactly was the offical move date? I typed it into search & got 176 entries. Looked at results from around july & august 2005 but didn't spot it!
I say no. Nonononononononononono! We are talking about life forms that even spammed Tempus Fugitive's threads. Do you really want to have anything to do with them? I had been on that board from 2002 to 2005. I may not had been constantly active, but I knew of the going-ons. I was never a target personally but that doesn't men I was not offended as a community member. The last time I went there was to take something from the archives and that was months ago. The archives are jambled beyond recognition and after we left, the troublemakers disappeared into thin air and a deranged old member popped up. As the koan goes, I am not as green as I am cabbage looking. Jackal, I cannot dictate what you do or what you don't do. I most certainly won't be patroling the old boards to see who is posting. But if you do start posting there again, especially since you *were* there in the end, when every single thread was bumped and spammed beyond recognition, I most certainly re-evaluate my opinion of you and write you down as hopelessly naive and painfully immature. To the new members. You were not part of that beef. We don't want you to be part of that beef. Start posting there if you like, but don't be surprised if the snakes we had in our bosom won't start pushing you to take sides. Edit: Clarified a sentence
Well, basically, it looks like any of the exodus gang that then go back and post on the old board are giving credence to the people that drove us away. To go back and mingle with people like that? Well, I think that would speak for itself.
[quote:29c62be5f4="Garner"]the date you registered, coincidentally enough.[/quote:29c62be5f4] Jaysus, seems like I'm always on the fence doesn't it. There are some things on the old board which I want to do, such as adding the last 2 parts of my novel (only 33 of the 35 parts were put up & what's the point of that?!). After that, I think I'll leave their board alone. Can't say if I'll stop forever, but we'll see how things go I suppose.
Not that it matter too much, but I don't understand why you want to put your whole story up there if not to get some response from the people on that board?
Posting on behalf of Garner [quote:8b9f63ec9a="Garner"]We've discussed the posting of your novel on the old boards before, Jackal. You'd said you weren't going to keep posting it over there. Going back on your word isn't 'starting an interesting discussion' on other message boards. It is just self-publishing. If you're concerned that you aren't getting a wide enough audience here, I've been told that Wikipedia is a popular website. Maybe you could post things there? I'm sure they could use an ultimate guide to Terry Pratchett, for example. Or maybe the general internet would be interested in your stomach muscles?[/quote:8b9f63ec9a]
Hey KK (), This may become a controversy, nothing less, nothing more. We were asked for our opinion, and everyone who's been around us knows that when that happens, they'll [i:7b001806d7]get [/i:7b001806d7]opinions. I think that's a good thing. I know you may have bad memories from the past floating on your mind's surface right now, but I don't see a reason to worry. One of the reasons the Temple has been created is that that way, politics can be discussed, and at the same time the "normal" business can go on. There's another forum I know where that's not happening, and to an eery extent not happening, if you ask me: Controversial threads get deleted or made accessible for members only after a while, without anybody commenting on it at all. Thus, the whole place looks like a happy la-la land on the surface, even though quite a few members are just as annyoed as they are over here. Unhealthy, I say. I prefer it this way.
I see two possible scenarios. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Either A) The trolls/abusers on the old board were so incredibly evil people that you would do all in your power to stop any of you founders of this board to socialise with them. In that case the evilness of those trolls and abusers scares me, because it's gotta be a pretty evil bunch to actually make someone try to forbid someone else of visiting certain internet boards. If they're just a little bit evil, I'd probably just recommend people to stay away, to actually forbid someone means you're seriously alarmed about that person's well being should they not follow your recommendation. B) The founders of this board despises the fact that some of the founders aren't as hostile to the other board as other founders. In that case the founders' pride scares me, because that's not the impression I've gotten from you guys so far. Now, I realise that I shouldn't be prodding the bad tooth in someone else's mouth, but I couldn't help reading this thread and was a bit alarmed of what I read. Personally, I hang around here because I enjoy talking to you. I've had a look at the old boards and didn't like it anymore. Too much garbage posts. But I couldn't care less if someone else posted there. Like I said before, this isn't really my business, but I think perhaps a friendly post explaining what this is all about would ease both my and other newcomers' mind, since I know atleast I can't help reading public posts. [i:eb9dd710f3]Edit: Well, Hsing posted quicker than me (and it answered some of my questions), but I'll leave my post as it is, to explain what scared me.[/i:eb9dd710f3]
[b:3ce67a4118]On Garner's behalf:[/b:3ce67a4118] [quote:3ce67a4118] "I dont think any of the 'founders' are divided on this issue at all. The response has been 'No going back.' from everyone who's been pivitol to this community. We were the ones who suffered, however. People who tried to stay 'neutral' did not, and thus may not care as much. It's worth pointing out, on the day of the official move Jackal posted on the old boards to say that he wasn't going to leave them, and that he felt maybe if some of the 'stronger personalities' left that the place would be more fun. He intended to just come check out this site from time to time. Well, the old site was a wasteland for a little while, until the moderator came and some of the trolls had to disappear or use new names. During that time, Jackal had indeed been active here, and eventually agreed to stop posting on the old site all together once it was finally driven home that this was a community rule that would apply to him as well. Now the old site isn't a wasteland anymore, not in Jackal's opinion certainly. He asked if he could be exempt from a rule that he never willingly agreed to in the first place. He was told that such an exemption wouldn't be officially granted and that taking it upon himself would displease a lot of us. He did it anyway. So, what? What happens now? Do we ban Jackal from posting, do we say he's a horrible person who'll danger your children's safety? Will he come in the night to steal all your potatos and take them back to feed to his army of leprachaun soldiers? No. He can post where he wants, and there's nothing to stop him from posting 'there' as well as 'here'. He's never been part of the 'community' in the way that Doors or Buzzfloyd or even Tonyblack and Dragonmother were. All we are is an audience for his novel or guide to pratchett works. If that's how he wants it, then fine. That's really the end all/be all of the situation. Jackal wanted to know if he could leave the 'community' and just be a fringe poster. He certainly can. For that matter, if Doors decided he wanted to go back and post on the old site, the same would really have to apply. I think it would hurt a lot more if Doors did it, it'd feel more like a betrayal instead of just a disappointment, and I'd serriously have to wonder if I still knew him as well as I thought - but that's a bridge I don't think we're ever going to cross. In the years to come, I'm sure we'll have plenty of people become core memebers of the community who never saw a post by Juggicide first hand. I bet a lot of people here have no idea who Kelly was. Those old fights won't matter to them, and ultimately they don't even matter to those of us who were involved in them anymore, except that they gave us the community standards we all live by, and they gave birth to the 'us or them' divisions. If you weren't there at the time, no one expects you to understand or to sign up with 'us' about this. No one's asking you to wear lilacs in your hair on a certain day. But if someone tries to sit at our table as our friend, and then tries to sit at the table of people they know are enemies to us, they must accept that they may never be welcome to share our food again." [/quote:3ce67a4118]
Thanks Garner, that answered more of my questions. On that note, are there any written/unwritten rules I'm expected to follow as a newcomer, besides the obvious to behave maturely?
[quote:7b7399e1f6="KaptenKaries"]Thanks Garner, that answered more of my questions. On that note, are there any written/unwritten rules I'm expected to follow as a newcomer, besides the obvious to behave maturely?[/quote:7b7399e1f6] That's obvious ? :shock:
[b:bae3db0aa7]Posted on Garner's behalf:[/b:bae3db0aa7] [quote:bae3db0aa7] "We'd talked about some sort of list of rules or guidelines or similar... it kind of got forgotten about for a time, i fear. Dos: Act maturely, responsibly, and with honesty towards your fellow boardanians. Give Garner money. Don'ts: Act like a jerk, throw a fit if you get in trouble, or annoy the crap out of everyone else. Unless you're Garner. that'll do for a short term guideline."[/quote:bae3db0aa7]
[quote:e44cf1d716="KaptenKaries"][quote:e44cf1d716="Katcal"]That's obvious ?[/quote:e44cf1d716] Does my behaviour suggest otherwise?[/quote:e44cf1d716] Of course not, I was referring only to my own stupidity Having a feathered hat and a parrot on your shoulder leaves no doubt on your maturity, only grown up pirates get those !
[quote:4300b54241="Hsing"][b:4300b54241]On Garner's behalf:[/b:4300b54241] [quote:4300b54241] "I dont think any of the 'founders' are divided on this issue at all. The response has been 'No going back.' from everyone who's been pivitol to this community. We were the ones who suffered, however. People who tried to stay 'neutral' did not, and thus may not care as much. It's worth pointing out, on the day of the official move Jackal posted on the old boards to say that he wasn't going to leave them, and that he felt maybe if some of the 'stronger personalities' left that the place would be more fun. He intended to just come check out this site from time to time. Well, the old site was a wasteland for a little while, until the moderator came and some of the trolls had to disappear or use new names. During that time, Jackal had indeed been active here, and eventually agreed to stop posting on the old site all together once it was finally driven home that this was a community rule that would apply to him as well. Now the old site isn't a wasteland anymore, not in Jackal's opinion certainly. He asked if he could be exempt from a rule that he never willingly agreed to in the first place. He was told that such an exemption wouldn't be officially granted and that taking it upon himself would displease a lot of us. He did it anyway. So, what? What happens now? Do we ban Jackal from posting, do we say he's a horrible person who'll danger your children's safety? Will he come in the night to steal all your potatos and take them back to feed to his army of leprachaun soldiers? No. He can post where he wants, and there's nothing to stop him from posting 'there' as well as 'here'. He's never been part of the 'community' in the way that Doors or Buzzfloyd or even Tonyblack and Dragonmother were. All we are is an audience for his novel or guide to pratchett works. If that's how he wants it, then fine. That's really the end all/be all of the situation. Jackal wanted to know if he could leave the 'community' and just be a fringe poster. He certainly can. For that matter, if Doors decided he wanted to go back and post on the old site, the same would really have to apply. I think it would hurt a lot more if Doors did it, it'd feel more like a betrayal instead of just a disappointment, and I'd serriously have to wonder if I still knew him as well as I thought - but that's a bridge I don't think we're ever going to cross.[/quote:4300b54241][/quote:4300b54241] Okay, I've just read a very honest account of my past stance on this & the old board. For sure, I was reluctant to leave the old board when everyone else did (like some more members). I had hoped that things could be smoothed out, alas, I finally gave into the truth of the matter. [quote:4300b54241]People who tried to stay 'neutral' did not, and thus may not care as much.[/quote:4300b54241] To say that I didn't care as much to what happened with the trolls is incorrect; I simply try to stay out of arguments, to avoid fuelling the fire. That's just my personality; I avoid conflict in real like situtations also. So yes, I have been here, on this board, practically since the start & have never regretted it, since everyone here, especially the older members, have created a board to be proud of. My recent comment was that the old board was now somewhat better (since those dark days last year where spamming reached critical mass); not cured, but on the way to it. I see now that the time has not come to post on the old board. I do admit to posting on it 3 or 4 times over the past couple of days but think it's now out of my system! [quote:4300b54241]He's never been part of the 'community' in the way that Doors or Buzzfloyd or even Tonyblack and Dragonmother were. All we are is an audience for his novel or guide to pratchett works. If that's how he wants it, then fine.[/quote:4300b54241] The above comment is perhaps the worst anyone has ever said to me on this board. When everyone was on the old site, I literally checked it up every day for 5 years. Since moving here, nothing has changed. I'm still here all the time. I thought I was accepted as a longstanding group member. Perhaps since I don't post as much as others, it leaves people into thinking I'm not fully fledged into the 'community'. As for the comment on my posting my novel: lots of members post their stuff to get feedback from people they respect. It isn't for self-gratification, as you seem to imply. I also hope that people have garnered (no pun; I like the word!) benefit from the Ultimate Guide. The list in itself, I feel, has been a community effort; though I'm proud of it. So what now? I have decided to never post on the old board again, without general consensus from the board that the time has come & the old board has become fit to immerse ourselves in. Although, that day may never come I fear. I would also like to apologise to anyone whom I may have offended by my recent behaviour. -Barry
[quote:f680dde7d1="Katcal"][quote:f680dde7d1="KaptenKaries"][quote:f680dde7d1="Katcal"]That's obvious ?[/quote:f680dde7d1] Does my behaviour suggest otherwise?[/quote:f680dde7d1] Of course not, I was referring only to my own stupidity Having a feathered hat and a parrot on your shoulder leaves no doubt on your maturity, only grown up pirates get those ![/quote:f680dde7d1] You can borrow mine, if you like. It's a bit loud though, I think I might go deaf on my left ear.
[quote:91236b6cfa="TheJackal"] [quote:91236b6cfa]He's never been part of the 'community' in the way that Doors or Buzzfloyd or even Tonyblack and Dragonmother were. All we are is an audience for his novel or guide to pratchett works. If that's how he wants it, then fine.[/quote:91236b6cfa] The above comment is perhaps the worst anyone has ever said to me on this board. When everyone was on the old site, I literally checked it up every day for 5 years. Since moving here, nothing has changed. I'm still here all the time. I thought I was accepted as a longstanding group member. Perhaps since I don't post as much as others, it leaves people into thinking I'm not fully fledged into the 'community'. As for the comment on my posting my novel: lots of members post their stuff to get feedback from people they respect. It isn't for self-gratification, as you seem to imply. [/quote:91236b6cfa] It's a matter of re-evaluation, Jackal. People are judged by their actions. You decided to post the remainder of your novel on the old boards, even though there was no real reason to do so. That implies self-publishing. If you go for self-publishing there, then one must then assume that you are here for the same reason. That may be a wrong conclusion, but it's a reasonable one to reach nontheless. For myself, I had no reason to consider you anything other than a fully fledged member of the community up until this thread. You were afraid that people would think less of you if you posted on the old boards, yet you didn't treat that seriously enough. Re-evaluation is inevitable, because people can't help how they feel. But I think a second re-evaluation can, and will occur. For the better. It's up to you, Jackal, and up to what you do.
