Does Carrot know he is the heir to the Ankh-Morpork Throne?

Discussion in 'THE WATCH BOOKS' started by peapod_j, May 6, 2006.

  1. peapod_j New Member

    I just finshed reding Night Watch and at the end Vimes cant be promoted any more becse if he was he would out rank Vetinari (Vimes would be a prince). but does Carrot kown that is is the rightfull heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork? and would he want to be King of Ankh-Morpork?
  2. Pixel New Member

    [quote:4b73dd48bd="peapod_j"]I just finshed reding Night Watch and at the end Vimes cant be promoted any more becse if he was he would out rank Vetinari (Vimes would be a prince). but does Carrot kown that is is the rightfull heir to the throne of Ankh-Morpork? and would he want to be Kink of Ankh-Morpork?[/quote:4b73dd48bd]

    I think you meant "King" rather than "Kink" - though with someone whose girlfriend sleeps one week out of four in a dogbasket, who knows? :)

    Yes, he clearly does know, but does not want the position (to the extent of destroying, or at least hiding, any supporting evidence) but has intimated that he might step forward to take the position in a real emergency. He also appears to be the moving force behind some of the promotions that Vimes has received.
  3. drunkymonkey New Member

    Yeah, I believe he first found out in Men at Arms. What's funny is that there's people out there to make him King and they end up getting arrested by his boss.

    Vetinari is unusually kind to him too.
  4. Pixel New Member

    [quote:267791deae="drunkymonkey"]Yeah, I believe he first found out in Men at Arms. What's funny is that there's people out there to make him King and they end up getting arrested by his boss.

    Vetinari is unusually kind to him too.[/quote:267791deae]

    If you read carefully, you will find that Vetinari is not being kind to Carrot - he is [i:267791deae]obeying[/i:267791deae] him - it is a situation which works for both of them - the end result being that [i:267791deae]Ankh-Morpork[/i:267791deae] works - which is what they both want!
  5. peapod_j New Member

    I was thinking (hard work when your studing for exams) maybe Carrot does not want to come forward as King because it would get up Vimes nose and the first Stoneface Vimes did cut the head off the lask King of Ankh-Morpork.
  6. randywine Member

    I agree also . . . not only does Carrot know, he uses the knowledge for the good of the watch and the city. Carrot (I think) has real respect for Vimes and respect for the way the city is run and he can see his place in the scheme of things very clearly, his role as Captain allows him the freedom to communicate (and influence) both the city dwellers and the city ruler(s). Carrot Likes his job and (again only my opinion) can see no reason to aspire to higher office when he has influence over said office anyway.
    As has been stated many times in the books — no-one really knows whats going on behind Carrots innocent smile anyhow...

    Regards

    R.
  7. SolidJackson New Member

    Carrot wants to keep the law, not be the law.
  8. tanatie New Member

    he's simple not stupid...he knows, but it's better for him this way...any by the way...I liked the scene where he and vetinari walk down a street and some guy comes up to carrot and says hi...and the asks him who the guy next too him is and carrots says "this is your ruler" :lol:
  9. Pixel New Member

    [quote:fa80da788c="tanatie"]he's simple not stupid...he knows, but it's better for him this way...any by the way...I liked the scene where he and vetinari walk down a street and some guy comes up to carrot and says hi...and the asks him who the guy next too him is and carrots says "this is your ruler" :lol:[/quote:fa80da788c]

    I thought I had a pretty good knowledge of the series, but I don't recognize this event - Which book?
  10. Rimfisher New Member

    [quote:767e68456c]I thought I had a pretty good knowledge of the series, but I don't recognize this event - Which book?[/quote:767e68456c]

    I believe something like that happens at the end of Thud!, except they're not walking down the street.
  11. urquhartfay New Member

    [color=green:737593109f]i think carrot is aware that his becomming king would not, in fact, be beneficial for ankh morpork, nor for himself. the ruler always gets blamed for everything that goes wrong, and the only way for a ruler to avoid getting into trouble is if he, like vetenari, is an absolute ruler, a tyrant, whom everyone fears. it is more effective for the people to hold on to the ideal of the lost king or of him personally if they (subconciously or not) see him as king, rather than him actually being king and having his weaknesses exposed and getting the blame for everything that goes wrong, which would cause people to lose their idealism and faith in him. ruling subtlely, by influence and not by dominance, is more effective.

    (does that make sense?)[/color:737593109f]
  12. roisindubh211 New Member

    look at what he says at the end of Men At Arms- he's edging around what he knows, letting Vetinari see that he knows it and chooses to leave things as they are, because its not good for people to do things just because Carrot's telling them to- he has a great respect for the principle of law and has dedicated himself to it.
  13. Katcal I Aten't French !

    I am currently reading the 5th Elephant, and fell upon this quote that seems relevant to this question :

    [quote:a2b2c4cff1="The Marthter"]Sometimes it seemed to Vimes that everyone knew Carrot was the true heir to the redundant throne of the city. It just so happened that he didn't want to be. He wanted to be a copper, and everyone went along with the idea. But kingship was a bit like a grand piano - you could put a cover over it, but you could still see what shape it was underneath.

    [i:a2b2c4cff1](T5E - hard cover page 60)[/i:a2b2c4cff1][/quote:a2b2c4cff1]
  14. QuothTheRaven New Member

    Well, that settles it.
  15. Catriona New Member

    He definitely knows- he practically tells Vimes he hid the documents, with the blank expression that Vimes himself uses when lying to Vetinari.

    He also knows that with his natural charisma people would follow him, but Vime's influence on him has made him think that people shouldn't just do things because Carrot tells them, and made him more distrustful of Kingship. Vimes is definitely a major factor stopping him gaining the throne, and as Vetinari himself pointed out, how long will that stop him for? (That's why Vetinari made all those allowances to Carrot- it was a bribe, not him being nice. He's too cunning to be nice)
  16. dididave New Member

    I think he knows quite well but chooses to stay Captain of the Watch because he can rule better from there. Central to everything he can influence all the important events in the city.
  17. TamyraMcG Active Member

    Carrot loves Anhk-Morpork, the law, and Commander Vimes too much to change it by reclaiming the throne, for now. If the day ever came when Anhk-Morpork needed a king more then it needs to not have a king, Carrot would do his duty and Angua would, too. She is of noble blood as much as Carrot and she would be as eligible as any other woman in modern day Anhk-Morpork.
  18. Earthland New Member

    Carrot definitely knows that. But he think that he is better guard than king.
  19. Tephlon Active Member

    It's pretty obvious Carrot knows.
  20. thedisc New Member

    If this has been pointed out already than sorry but..............in Men At Arms, Carrot reads the information that the Dr Downey (think it's him) compiled. He must discover than that he is the hier to the throne because he also choses to bury the evidence with the coffin.

    Vimes points out that the coffin seemes heavier & Carrot plays all innocent.
  21. Mithras-Kosmokrator New Member

    Carrot is not only aware of who he is, but also prepared to use the authority that comes with in - in a subtle way. I think it's when Vetinari makes Vimes a Duke that he (Vetinari) observes he is sure the King would ratify the appointment should they ever have one again - the implication being that Carrot has given his approval.
  22. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Not only given his approval, but made the suggestion, I thought.
  23. pfft New Member

    Carrot knows, but he doesn't want to be "King" because he knows Vimes'd 'ack his 'ead orf!!! Just like ol' Stoneface did the last king.


    "I used to talk to myself, but we're okay now"
  24. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    Do you really think so? I don't think Vimes would unless he felt it was necessary, and I don't think Carrot would do anything that would make it necessary.
  25. pfft New Member

    No, no. I think seriously there is a kind of father/son bond (somewhat vague, maybe) between them that for me is one of the most endearing things about the later watch novels. Obviously Vimes knows Carrot is the "Rightful heir" (as does everyone else i think), and i think he is trying to protect him because he knows the dangers that such a role would bring to Carrot. As to weather Carrot knows? Either he doesn't, (his innocent naivete?) or he does and is being cunningly clever because he doesn't want to be "King!"

    Also, sometimes I get the feeling that another reason for his reluctance to take the throne (if indeed he DOES know), stems from his great respect for Vimes! This is my interpretation anyway. I'm probably wrong again, though!



    "I only drink when I'm sober!"
  26. Sunna New Member

    I completely agree with the Vimes angle myself.Mr.Vimes would go spare!
  27. nutkar97 New Member


    Actually its Dr Cruces, who Carrot stabs, leaving a hole in the stone pillar, as mentioned several times, its not the guy who pulls a sword out of a stone whos special, its the guy who put it in in the first place. Lord Downey is Dr Cruces successor.
  28. Rewr New Member

    Ventinari knows who Carrot is, he shows Carrot the truth behind the throne - wood and gold leaf.

    Must read Thud again.
  29. Detritus New Member

    My understanding is that Carrot realises that AM needs a ruler, not a hero, and Vetinari already fills the role admirably.

    I don't understand why everyone thinks Carrot is simple. Apart from his first entry into the series where he doesn't appear to realise he isn't of Dwarvish origin, he has always seemed quite smart to me.
  30. Buzzfloyd Spelling Bee

    He's described that way in the books, with the clear understanding that simple isn't the same as stupid.
  31. Casaninbetween New Member

    I completely disagree. Carrot doesn't think personal is the same as important. He does what he thinks is right, not what he thinks Vimes will like.

    That's true. For example, he doesn't understand irony.
  32. charishawk New Member

    In a way, Carrot could be seen as being as cunning as Vetinari - as Vimes (I think it was) observes to himself in one of the books, you'd have to be VERY cunning to appear as simple as Carrot does.

    I think it's been made clear here and there in the books (as mentioned in this thread already) that Carrot knows exactly what's up, and uses that knowledge when necessary, but makes it appear that he's just innocent ol' Carrot.

    Also, yes, I think respect for Vimes does have something to do with it - not that he fears him at all, but that Vimes has influenced Carrot's understanding of the way the city should work and of the importance of the law as a separate thing from the person behind the law (what better example of that than Vimes, who has his own Watchman?) I think that's one reason Carrot says what he does about not wanting people to follow him just because it's him telling them what to do.
  33. leev New Member

    of course he knows but he doesnt want to rule i'm sure it say somewhere in the books he dosent want people doing things because he says so
    although i think vetinari and carrot are grooming vimes for vetinari's job
    for when he finally retires
  34. Yoko New Member

    carrot: the heir to the throne

    Absolutely, Carrot knows although he doesn't openly admit it. Remember Men at arms (that's the one with the Gonne right?). At the end of the book Carrot and Vetinari have a very silent discussion about it. Carrot decides to live his life as a humble member of the Watch!

Share This Page