I always felt that Rinso's control of the terracotta warriors was described in such a way that it seemed rather more science than magic - MOCAP, HUDs and what have you, with almost no whiff of occult - almost as if this was a "lost" scientific skill being rediscovered. Any opinions, folks?

Lemmings.


My mum is totally adicted to Lemmings, she has played that blasted game over and over for the last 10 years almost... I almost died laughing reading that passage in Interesting times...

By the way, Mr. Cake, it may be a good idea to add a "minor spoiler" warning on your post, not everyone has read all the books

Hmm. Doesn't all 'science' or related technology on the Discworld rely on magic? Hex does, along with anything started by the wizards, Leonard's space flight in TLH does, as does the ability to communicate with those still Discbound, filming technology in MP does, the really fast cart in Thud does. I'm trying to think of other examples.

The clacks system doesn't, but the way that operates is visible and explained, unlike with the terracotta warriors. I always got the impression the computery language surrounding the warriors was meant to refer to some computer game, anyway.

Of course, there is the old Arthur C Clarke rule.

Edit: crossposted with Katcal. Presumably, Lemmings is the computer game in question. Also, I don't think it's necessary to add spoiler warnings in a forum dedicated to discussing the books. In General Discussion, yes, but in a forum like this one, you should know what we're doing. Any other opinions on that?

Well, I did say minor spoiler... and also, when I saw "I.T. - the subtle science of robotics", I honestly didn't think of I.T. being Interesting Times until I read the contents

Actually, it has just hit me that this may be another one of Pterry's subtle jokes...

And to add to the actual content of this thrread, the golems are also kind of robots, but they rely on magic too, I agree with Buzzfloyd on this, all technology seems to rely on magic. And I want a Gooseberry™.

[color=red:16439eb683][size=16:16439eb683]The Last Hero Spoiler Warning[/size:16439eb683][/color:16439eb683]



[quote:16439eb683="Here be Spoilers"]
[quote:16439eb683="Buzzfloyd"][color=white:16439eb683]Doesn't all 'science' or related technology on the Discworld rely on magic? [...] Leonard's space flight in TLH does[/color:16439eb683][/quote:16439eb683]

[color=white:16439eb683]I can't remember this bit. Wasn't the space flight powered by dragons? And dragons' fiery blast is explained in other books as the result of chemical reactions in their indigestive system. What part of Leonard's space flight is based on magic?[/color:16439eb683][/quote:16439eb683]

[quote:739bee15e2="Katcal"]And I want a Gooseberry™.[/quote:739bee15e2]

Nip nip nip, Insert Name Here.

Hehe, a Swedish Gooseberry™

To answer the question in your spoiler bit, dragons are supposed to be magical creatures, swamp dragons seem to manage to exist in the Disc's magic field easily enough, but the big ones (the Wyrmburg dragons in TLF and the dragon in Guards! Guards! for example) require magic to exist. The chemicals are there, but without a little magic and without summonning they couldn't exist in the Disc's reality...

On the other hand, I haven't read The Last Hero, so I don't really know what You mean

I read I.T. as Information Technology, especially as it was paired with the words "Science" and "Robotics". I was wondering why it was in the wizard books forum. A clearer thread title would help....
If you really think "Interesting Times" is too long to type out, I would suggest using the abbreviation like they do on LSpace/AFP (The Alt.Fan.Pratchett newsgroup), which is: IT

Anyway, I think it was mostly to mock Lemmings*. The Terracotta warriors were more like Golems than tech.




* the game, not actual lemmings. Sad suicidal furry creatures....

Edit to add footnote

Tephlon, official [i:492c61c797]Sayer Of What I Wanted To Say But Better[/i:492c61c797] since... Well, alright, not that long.

[quote:5f22b9ce75="Mr_Cake"]I always felt that Rinso's control of the terracotta warriors was described in such a way that it seemed rather more science than magic - MOCAP, HUDs and what have you, with almost no whiff of occult - almost as if this was a "lost" scientific skill being rediscovered. Any opinions, folks?[/quote:5f22b9ce75]
I agree with you that it could have been AI and virtual reality related but if you look at it in a slightly more lateral way PTerry, like PG Wodehouse, uses many topical twists in his works.

When IT came out there had been a bunch of recent books that were questioning whether archaeology was missing the right frame of mind to look for more technical explanations for how massive architectural structures had been accomplished. The name of the authors sticking their oar in escapes me but I think it was Michael Baigent (co-author) and Egyptologists, especially, lambasted the ideas. Chariots of the Gods was one in the series. I know that the Orientals and Persians wouldn't even countenance them investigating the sites of the various emperor burials to hatch their semi-baked notions of what the massive numbers of terracotta figures 'really signified'. The pair couldn't get visas to those countries because they were seen as American troublemaking crackpots (even though they weren't US).

Pterry could have been aiming his gentle dig at both sides of the above debate. The most ingenious anti-hero might possibly come up with the correct solution, while destroying all the evidence which could constitute proof. The way it was done in IT was so clever because it could in no way offend creationists, or give brownie points to those who believe that civilisation has been around far longer than Christian/Judaic/Islamic churches want you to believe. More than that, previous civilisations have been far more numerate and able than said churches can accept without losing their own credibility.

It is one of the reasons I prefer the Wizard books more than the City books, because although City life goes on around them, the insulated Wizards are able to distill and explain the debate from the ignorance of the masses like a particularly fine scumble. Without the metaphorical ice you can't appreciate the metaphorical water. i.e. If there is no debate, there isn't really any point to the answer.

edit: change He to Pterry

PTerry's flat out said that it was a parody of Lemmings, a game which had absorbed a great deal of his free time while he was writing IT.

As for Leonard's Kite, it operated even past the rim, where magic fails. Swamp dragons, from what has been shown, require no magic to live. Their abilities are based purely on chemistry. The [i:16630e1029]nobilis[/i:16630e1029] dragons are different. They can't exist without magic. They don't operate on chemical reactions. They simply twist reality until it works the way they need it.

I'm sorry Ba, call me a rampant cynic destroyed by too many years reworking words in the media. Reading that just made my spin detector read straight off the chart.

If it was just a game, which I readily admit I haven't played, that inspired the mythological devices/lost technology scene in IT then excuse me - me not lemming.
If Bill Clinton had tried something like that the indictment would have been thrown right out of court.
Judge: So Mister Clinton, you say that you were only demonstrating what Ms Lewinski needed to do to get past the doorkeeper in Level 72 of Rule the World.
BC: That's correct your Honour.
Judge: And would you say you demonstrated it successfully?
BC: Well your honour, you'll have to ask Ms Lewinski that. All ah know is that she hasn't asked for any help with the game since then.
Now that would have been spin that every red-blooded male the world would have stood up for and cheered. All it takes is the right amount of brains and you could change the cause of global warming being too many cows emitting methane. Oh right they already did that too.
**Hears Mob alert detector and decides to subside before Ba chooses to smite her**

Err, it's clearly a parody of lemmings, no spin there. I've played the game, it sprung to mind the first time I read that scene.

But, it could also be your historical thing. What they thought was a bunch of men fighting for freedom was actually a techmagical group of golems controlled by the Great Wizard. Like the ponderings about whether the great buildings used technology that you mention.

I'm not really sure where creationism enters the debate though, the book isn't about the start of life, it's more about the start/end of civilisations. Two entirely separate things, sort of. Well, at least the start of civilisation doesn't inflame passions so much.

[quote:ff168d70bf="Electric_Man"]Err, it's clearly a parody of lemmings, no spin there. I've played the game, it sprung to mind the first time I read that scene.[/quote:ff168d70bf]I'll take all your words' for it about the game. There's too much similarity stated for me not to. A study into the various cultures epic god/titan mythologies, would give you all another base to see why I stand by my pyramid.
[quote:ff168d70bf="Electric_Man"]Well, at least the start of civilisation doesn't inflame passions so much.[/quote:ff168d70bf]No, sadly it's just the end of civilisations that inflame passions. I'll go be civilised now and shut up.

Did you notice my "also"? Terry has used double meanings in many books (possibly sometimes unintentionally), so it could quite easily be both.