Bedtime Stories

Dwarfs and trolls have a long history of animosity. Koom Valley is the reason. It is the battle where dwarfs/trolls ambushed trolls/dwarfs long ago that still fuels vivid re-enactments in dwarfs and trolls not in any way related to what took place there.
These dwarfs and trolls have brought Koom Valley to Ankh-Morpork. In a conflict that exaggerates and stresses the details of its Roundworld equivalent, a strong political message can be found. Pratchett shows us that the mere existence of a conflict is enough to keep it going for centuries. Through the smart juxtaposition of the effect and its cause Pratchett conveys how racial hatred and prejudice are often cruel meaningless perversions of an irrelevant and petty dispute.
Thud! is a dark novel that explores the rough edges of two harshly conflicting cultures, but it is also profoundly Discworld and leaves the reader wondering what is real and what it is fantasy.

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Here it is! The discussion of the latest Discworld novel.

I'll start by giving my opinion and asking a few questions and we'll see where it goes from there.

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I have mixed feelings about this book. On the one hand, I think it has the best storyline so far. The story is interesting and strong. The element of mystery and suspense works very well in this book and I would almost classify it as a thriller. On the other hand, I missed some of the comical elements that make Discworld what it is. By this I don't mean it needs more one-liners or comical characters. I mean that Thud! fails to dilute its message with a bit of mockery which ultimately leads to the impression, on me anyway, that it takes itself too seriously. The central conflict in the book, Koom Valley, is harsh. The self-reflection that makes Discworld open and honest is not there. Thud! leaves no room for discussion in that area.
So... not the best Discworld book I've read but certainly a very decent one and one that showcases Pratchett's abilities to a larger extent than before.

What is your take on this?
What do you think of Thud! and do you agree with me on the message?

Also my second discussion question:
Do you think Thud! places Where's My Cow? on a similar level as the legends of the dwarfs and the trolls (Mr. Shine, Tak, legends surrounding Koom Valley) with the prominent place it is given in the book to illustrate the danger that lies in such traditional stories because essentially they have little truth in them and are often interpreted subjectively?

Feel free to respond in any way you like. Answer my questions, ask your own questions, ridicule my opinion.. etc.

Just discuss.

I liked it, its a nicely written story.

I agree though, there isn't too much comic relief. I didn't particularly like the parts about Nobby's love life, and even Angua, Sally etc. on a girls night out .. it seemed a little forced!

I felt that the contrast with the rest of the story was really too big to play this out effectively and I thought it didn't really fit Cheery and Angua.

Come to think of it, this one seems to be written with a movie in mind .. it's actually possible to make a good movie out of the book (I think). And there are so many small things that would appeal to a movie audience .. glowing vurms, Angua and Sally facing off for a fight, naked .. I'm sure there are much more.

That is a good point, I hadn't looked at it that way yet. I had a similar feeling when reading The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents.
Scenes like (white spoiler text):
Rats swimming in stuff (can't remember in what), the tap dancing rat and the rat festival at the end would all make great children's movie scenes.

From the top of my head…
Plus: The book as a whole… was really good. A lot of the whodunnit I like about some of the Watch books, a lot of Ankh-Morpork-atmosphere (more than in Going Postal, for some reason), suspense and all. When I was at page 199, I had decided I liked it would make it under my top 5, at least for now (its kind of shuffling).

Plus: I really liked most of the new characters introduced, besides finding Sally boring (see below). In Going Postal, I soemhow felt I could connect to the more central newcomers like Moist and “Spike”, but not with the sidekicks in that book. In “Thud”, some of the sidecast is really charismatic, or rather three dimensional I think… Mr Shine, Grag Bashfullson, poor Helmclever, A.E. Pessimal… I loved the small twist with A.E.Pessimal; sent to Vetinari to annoy Vimes (that is what he suspects, at least), and –is simply hired.

I also didn’t expect to see so many well known characters successfully into the story again. All the classic constellations made a re-appearance after having somwhat faded into the background during, say, Night Watch. Nobby and Colon have their scenes, although Colon suddenly displayed a lot of cunningness just when it came handy (the scene in the museum) and fell back into his usual routine later in the museum-related scenes towards the end of the story.
Minus: Sally: for such an eyecatching and charismatic appearance as hers is described to be, she stays surprisingly colourless. Would her character be deleted out of the story, we wouldn’t miss that much, except that putting a vampire into the watch was somehow on the schedule and she was a background to contrast Angua in this book, who was an old regular who got a little more of the spotlight again. We never leran anything more about Sallys oh-so-stunning appearance than that she might pass for 16. I found nothing in the text that enabled me to form some kind of mental picture of her. Maybe I overred something…

Ah, I found it nice to see Angua back, but as she was, as far as I remember, always described as pretty charismatic and all in the Watch books so far, or the type not bothering at all with it, suddenly there’s a big fuss about her feeling like the poor dumb cousin next to, excuse me, a pretty colourless sally-character. She somehow seems to have lost part of her self confidence over her years with Carrot, which is never a good sign for a relationship. I also noticed that all the vampish behaviour Angua saw in Sally, didn’t bother her at all when they combined their effort in “vampish” behaviour when trying to talk Tawnee out of the Nobby-relationship. Was that a Sex-and-the-City reference I only partly got or what? I suspect so...
But I agree to you guys that it would have fit better in earlier Watch books, who were more centred on Ankh Morpork, in a way.

Another thought The curse awfully reminded me of that thing hunting Tiffany in “A Hat Full Of Sky”…. I didn’t mind that, but still – the “its looking for a champion it can use”-bit and all that…
The solution Vimes found for himself –denying that it had succeeded with entering his mind at all –might have fit tha character as such. But even from the most rational person on the disc, you might, seeing that he is a citizen of the Discworld after all, expect some kind of acceptance that such things exist, and are more than folk tale.
That’s it for now. More later.

I think I don't quite get that question... ?
What I liked is how Vimes' affection towards his son is displayed. I was afraid it might be a much... "cuddlier" book all in all, the dark part was more of a pleasant surprise to me, but I was also relieved to see how well Vimes transformed into a father-figure without loosing too much of himself.
When that scene was displayed where he races home for the first time in the book, I thought, at first: "oh, no, this is just a little too much classic slapstick for me..." You know, these old black and white movies...?
And then the whole scene took a turn, not by its action, only via the description. (p 122 - 123 in the Transworld edition):

I'm not that sure about that question myself, it was more of a hunch. It boils down to this:
The book is permeated with references to dwarf and troll legends, even aside from the Koom Valley story. I thought that, especially when Vimes was taking apart the Where's My Cow? in his head, Pratchett was making a point about these stories. Like a children's book their content depends on what is entertaining or what supports the storyteller's intention (in this case stories about cruel dwarfs and stupid trolls). In particular that as long as the reader is satisfied their mutability is limitless. For example in the dwarf legend that depicts troll as having stolen life. When Bloodaxe speaks through the cube we hear the original version, where trolls are given in life in gratitude. Two opposite situations really, and the first hs simply been formed around the dwarf perspective of Koom Valley. Maybe the link is tenuous, but I thought that particularly during the scene where Vimes unravels the Koom Valley myth while reading, well... shouting, to his son attempted to connect the two in order to make a point.

I agree with you about Sally. She was the only new character that didn't really work.

Originally put forth by Hsing:
I'm not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean the story as a whole or Sally?

I meant the "girl's night out".

Ah right, yes you're right about that.

One other thing I stumbled across was, right in the beginning, when Vimes said to himself that he never got the grip on politics...(p18) I mean, in this book, he was a little more himself again, in that respect, but after seeing him as the sideacast in "Monstrous Regiment"... well...he did quite well there.

I'm not sure about this book. I liked bits of it, but I've got some problems with it. Admittly, I read it while ill, and on tubes and while walking to and from places, so I've probably rushed it and will like it more the second time.


I didn't like Angua in this book. I think after T5E He's stereo typed her character. Angua *isn't* like the other werewolves, that’s why she's works, after defining the traits in the last book, it seems he's just applied them too her. A few examples of this: Her not wanting to have a 'S.H.O.W.E.R.*' Now, as far as I can remember Angua has always been quite clean- I can remember in T5E Carrot said after her and the wolf rode the manure cart and Angua would head to a pool straight away. I can also remember a couple of times in past books where Angua remarked that she wanted a shower. There was never any sign of her having Issues' with it.

Also the Carrot Good Dog/Master thing. Never before has Angua's thought's been that of a Dog 'Must be a Good Boy!!' What annoys me about that is Angua and Carrot don't have a Master/Dog relationship. In MAA Gaspode has a discussion with Angua about how werewolves are a bit like Dogs and how if she chooses to go back, she won't be a dog, she'll 'be happier as a human'. Now, for me, that was an important character defining moment. Angua chose to over come her animal side and enter the relationship as a Human. Now, it seems that she's reverted to just Dog/Master relationship. Which I don't like. The point of Angua is that she is in control, and acts differently to normal werewolves.

I was unsure of her 'I hate vampire' thing. I liked how she was envious of Sallys vampiric grace because I think that is something Angua would want, but I think a lot of there relationship seemed a but forced.


What I felt was missing from this was the sense of a crime. It felt too political, rather than mystry. I didn't really *care* that there had been a murder, normally, that is what drives Vimes but I didn't get that same sense this time. I also didn't really think there was a villain, Ardent didn't seem that important at the end.


I liked the bit's in Vimes mind, but didn't feel they where used to there full potienal, I was waiting for some epic struggle but it just seemed that at the end 'The Watchman' showed up. We only really got a sense that the Dark was being chased a bit before that. I'd of liked to of seen all this expanded.

I really loved Vimes with his Kid, I felt they where the best bits of the book. I loved the way his world completely changed when he was in the presence of his child. I also liked Vimes' interaction with Vetinari, where they have got the stage where they both know the game and say enough with just looks. Mr Shine was interesting, I hope we see more of him.

I'm not sure about Carrot in this one. I get the feeling that Pratchett doesn't know what to do with him anymore.

I thought the end was crackingly good. I wonder what dwarf/troll relationship will be like in the next novels...?

Liked Thud! much more than Going Postal or Monstrous Regiment. One of his best.

I enjoyed the book as a whole although I agree that Sally didn't have much characterisation - no clues as to why she only looks 16, very few hints about her spying role. It does leave lots of opportunity for development though.

I liked that the wizards actually came up with something almost practical to speed up the coaches.

And it looks like Ankh-Morpork is going to get it's own underground system.

She looked 16 because she was only 57, which is quite young for a vampire, and vampires age slowly. What I thought was odd about her is what was she replaced her Vampirism with? Otto-photography, Melitida (sp) has coffee, Lady Marolotta has replaced blood with politics. I thought for a second, that she'd obcess over men (because of what she'd thought about Carrot) this would make sense in the sense that in vampire terms she's a 16 year old girl-getting crushes. It would also lead to an interesting conflict between Angua and her. In that she'd be obcessing over Carrot, who's Anguas. But if she stopped obcessing over him, she'd start obcessing over blood.I think that would have been ok.