Until such time as an alternative community (not consisting of trolls) develops on the Harper Collins board, that board is the old board of [i:8b557f2253]this[/i:8b557f2253] community. Talking to the people there means talking to trolls, and it is just the same as if you got friendly with trolls on this board. It doesn't help our anti-troll security system to continue talking about their activity there. They can't hurt us now. We have moved on from that board in terms of the URL, and we need to do so in terms of our thoughts.
It wouldn’t be so bad if it was actually a decent site, but it isn’t, it’s a total shit hole at the moment; if it wasn’t we wouldn’t have left. All there is on there are a bunch of no brainer threads started by regicide and answered by regicide under different names. All the reasons why we left are still there – the trolls are still there, the spam ads are still there, and Harper Collins still couldn’t care less about either. I think going back to post there is just totally lame, I mean what’s the point? The place is crap and the people are idiots at best, assuming they are people and not just one person. Are you really missing the opinions of Gooner and the like that much? And besides, we don't want them coming here, so it only seems fair that we don't go there?
[quote:35df0feea6="Maljonic"]And besides, we don't want them coming here, so it only seems fair that we don't go there?[/quote:35df0feea6] Exactly. Let them have the old boards to do with as they wish, posting over there is going to cause nothing but trouble at the end of the day. I can't understand why anyone would wish to post over there unless of course they wish to make '$$$$' on paypal and if they do there probably better staying over there.
I agree with Grace 100% on this matter. For the moment, it is stupid for anyone who knows and agreed with our reasons for moving to keep posting over there. What about newbies here? Edit - oops. Didn't notice the "prior to August 19th" bit. Ignore that last bit then.
I took it for granted that when everybody moved to this site it was a case of 'all or nothing' By that i mean if a poster came to this site it was 'instead of' rather than 'as well as'.
I'd think that folks who join the community after the 19th would want to follow community protocol, but they wouldn't be expected to have made the same group committment to moving away from the trolls. Now, this raises the question of what if someone who refused to support the move has come along with it, but still posts on the old site. To both newbies, and the non-signatores, I'd say that if you're going to join this community, you're going to abide by it's rules. still, I'm only looking at a very narrow and specific focus for right now. we can extrapolate from there once this issue is settled
Since the poor old place is completely overrun, and I would be in serious danger of exceeding my asshole quota for the rest of the year, I won't be going. I can only speak for myself in this situation though. I don't know if imposing sanctions on the people who post on both would work, that may add ammunition to the statements made about the community being intolerant. I know that we are only intolerant to the intolerable, but you know as well as I do that they don't see things the same way... Not much else I can say really
Since I'm the only one who voted no as yet, I'll try to argue my stance . Actually it's quite simple, who am I to forbid someone talking on another board? It would be stupid, because all the nice people are here, but if it makes someone happy, why not? I'll admit that I'm not a die hard poster, not on this board (as yet) or on the old one though, so I'm not sure if my vote will count as much as some of the others . And if a person really wants to post on the other board, he can just take another nick and be done with it can't he/she?
There is no problem with posting on 'another' board. But the board in question is one populated by people who spent several hours every day trying to piss us off. So much so that we had to leave the board. I group of people who are both watching this board and have said that they have accounts here. It's clear that these people *don't* like us, so the only reason they would start to post here would be to, at some time, anoy us. We want them to get on with having there own board, so we can get on with ours. We want them to leave us alone, you've seen the problems Juggy can cuase if he wants (though we can deal with them now, i'd rather we didn';t have too) we want them to forget about us. Too do that we have to stop posting there at least for now. I have to ask why does anyone want to post on that speific board- the only people there are the people that *drove* us off it? Why would you want to interact with them. Posting on *other* boards is fine, but that is a board filled with people who hate us. Why hang around with them?
I voted yes. Even as a Lurker, I too think it's important that those members [u:823eb52773]who agreed to the move[/u:823eb52773] complete that relocation and leave the HC board alone; to be rebuilt or deluged by spam, whatever the case may be. The HC Board members already seem to think that Elders are interfering anonymously. I would be shocked to think that any member here was behaving in such a manner and am rallied by the fact that I have never seen such Machiavellian behavour in anyone on this Board. However, it [u:823eb52773]is[/u:823eb52773] a particular trait of those few remaining on the HC board who proclaim to have initiated or partaken in the coup d'etat. Even an innocent post made on the old Board by one of the moving members raises controversy to the fore again, on both Boards. To paraphrase Buzzfloyd, conversing with trolls is not something which has been condoned so why make an exception. Obviously it was frustrating at the time but let's make it clear by our vote that we, as a Community, wish to leave well enough alone.
[quote:e0755ca6f5="Rincewind"]There is no problem with posting on 'another' board. But the board in question is one populated by people who spent several hours every day trying to piss us off. So much so that we had to leave the board. I group of people who are both watching this board and have said that they have accounts here. It's clear that these people *don't* like us, so the only reason they would start to post here would be to, at some time, anoy us. We want them to get on with having there own board, so we can get on with ours. We want them to leave us alone, you've seen the problems Juggy can cuase if he wants (though we can deal with them now, i'd rather we didn';t have too) we want them to forget about us. Too do that we have to stop posting there at least for now. I have to ask why does anyone want to post on that speific board- the only people there are the people that *drove* us off it? Why would you want to interact with them. Posting on *other* boards is fine, but that is a board filled with people who hate us. Why hang around with them?[/quote:e0755ca6f5] I couldn't have said it better myself Rinso. A yes vote for me, and all or nothing was my philosophy upon moving here too.
I voted yes. But I think we should revisit this in a few months or so. It's possible that the HC board will eventually be repopulated by normal people who are interested in Terry Pratchett. It is easily found via Google, it is the publisher's official site. If there comes a time when the HC board isn't troll-dominated, but is just a normal message board, then there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to post here and there.
I voted no because I would never tell anyone not to talk to anyone else no matter how much I disliked that person. I think I know when and if I want to talk to someone and I don't give anyone else the right to dictate to me where I do so. I have refrained from posting on the old boards because most of the trolls there are too boring to talk to, or too something. If this changes I want to be free to post there and I don't feel I should have to ask anyone's permission to do so. This rule strikes me as being just a little too clique-y, it has a defensiveness that I don't think is necessary, and I do think is rash and disrespectful. They do watch us and they do glory in seeing this sort of thing, it feeds their sense of self righteousness. I strongly suggest everyone re-think why you would want to dignify this bunch of poseurs by implying they have any kind of power over us at all. edit: typo
Ditto Garner. I disagree with what you've said TamyraMcG. Now I don't want anyone to think I'm argueing with people to make them change there mind. I'm not. And i do apprecticate thoses who said no explaining why but I *do* disagree and want to explain my point of view. [quote:2f7ea5305a="TamyraMcG"]I voted no because I would never tell anyone not to talk to anyone else no matter how much I disliked that person. I think I know when and if I want to talk to someone and I don't give anyone else the right to dictate to me where I do so.[/quote:2f7ea5305a] I don't think this is a case of 'telling' or 'dictating' anyone. It's ASKING people to agree too a common rule which the mayourity of people think is for the best for the community. Also it isn't a case for people we 'dislike' it's a case of people that spent 4 hours *everyday* anoying us. Trying to *DESTROY* us. Bad anology time. Say at your work you had someone who came and *screamed* right in your face for hours everyday so you couldn't speak. After months of this you and your co-workers go to a secret floor where you can work in peace, do you think it would be fair to agree 'lets not tell them/encourage them come go this new floor'. [quote:2f7ea5305a]I have refrained from posting on the old boards because most of the trolls there are too boring to talk to, or too something. If this changes I want to be free to post there and I don't feel I should have to ask anyone's permission to do so.[/quote:2f7ea5305a] All we're aggreeing to here is refraining from posting on the board while it's a community consisting of people who spend hours every day pissing us off. Blah... I have to go now, more on this next week.
I guess it's the anarchist in me that objects to this community decision you have proposed, Garner. I just think that the fewer rules we have, the better chance we will be able to follow them. :roll: Rincewind, I hope your stay in Wales was good, if someone yelled at me at work and didn't own the place I would go to the owner and get clarifacation as to the yellers right to yell at me. If it was allowed I would get a different job. If it was the owner I would get a different job. We did get a different board, we don't have to have anything to do with the persons who are taking bets as to whether this community fails or lives. This could include not making references to the other board or who or what is posted there in our community rules. It just isn't important enough to me to get all bent out of shape if someone gets the yen to reply to one of the discussions over there. There is damned little of interest anyway on the old boards, I doubt many of us would want to get that involved with it. I have been checking the old place, but less and less, I was curious to see if the trolls could manage to make something out of the place. So far, they haven't been able to get very far off the subject of Garner. Apparently they keep pretty close tabs here, I don't know how much time they have left to devote to building their new community, it can't be much. On the other hand, if I did see an interesting conversation when I am visiting the old place I would like to know it wouldn't cost me my Unseen Board friendships to post a . Bottom line for me, I don't want to be told I can't talk to someone.
I agree that arguing with trolls (on the old Board, or elsewhere) is a total waste of time and braincells. I wouldn't do it, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone else. Still, I won't vote for making it a capital offense unless I know for a fact that doing so will bring harm onto this Board. I mean, if someone tries to pull a Juggercide here, his/her account can be deleted, right? At the same time, we've let our new URL be widely known to the old Board members. If they want to find us, they will. Ditto for new trolls, unidentified with the old Board. They will come eventually. We're not immune, unless we put an iron wall around ourselves, and that would be just as bad as letting trolls in. (I can just see Mal saying: "Well, if you're so keen on letting trolls in, YOU clean up after them!" ) My reason for ambivalence is pretty much the same as Tamyra's - I'd rather reserve the hardcore, do-it-and-be-damned commandments for serious offenses. I don't want to help make this place Draconian. I think it's plenty enough that people know they can have their accounts deleted at will, to keep the potential trolls in line. (again, if Mal says "Well, then I'll spend my time doing nothing but deleting trolls's accounts!", I'll probably reconsider) And, since Harper Collins is still advertising the old Site as THE Place to go to for Terry Pratchett conversations, I'm holding out hope that it will shape up someday. The old trolls will eventually get sick of themselves, provided no one feeds them (and if they do, they'll have the guilt of allowing the old Board to fester in its trollishness hanging over them). As of now, this would have been my response to people who talk to trolls on the Old Board: - you won't be tossed out for doing this, but please keep in mind that by keeping those idiots entertained, you're giving them an excuse to hang around and stink the place up.
I don't think anybody is saying we can't post on other message boards, or even the HP message board in the future; it's more of a case of being upset that anyone from this community that belonged to the old one would want to even speak to the people that caused us so much upset in the first place. I don't think we're talking about banning people for posting there, but it does make it awkward to be friends with people who are being openly friendly to self-delclared enemies, who are the only people that are still there at the moment. I don't think anyone would object to posting there in the future if a whole new community sprung up on the HC board, but why would you want to post there now? The people there are idiots, morons, pathetic and downright nasty - if you weren't sure how stupid they were before we left, if you thought that maybe they were intelligent and using the spamming to get a point across, you can't be in any doubt as to just how stupid they are when you look at their conversations now. They're lucky if they can string two sentences together, their new book topics read like a review by a six year old; it's insulting that anyone from here would want to speak to them, not something that is one of our laws. One thing I wish [i:9ff21ee98d]was[/i:9ff21ee98d] one of our laws is to NOT keep singling Garner out as the potagonist in these things; he didn't come up with this idea, lots of people did - in fact I think it was probably Electric Man that came up with the idea of moving all or nothing for the first time over a month ago - but it doesn't matter who it was if the majority of us agree to it, it just makes sense not to want to upset everyone that you are supposed to be friends with, not because you think you might get banned but because it's common sense and decency to behave in that way.
[quote:451443682b="Buzzfloyd"]Until such time as an alternative community (not consisting of trolls) develops on the Harper Collins board, that board is the old board of [i:451443682b]this[/i:451443682b] community. Talking to the people there means talking to trolls, and it is just the same as if you got friendly with trolls on this board.[/quote:451443682b] I thought I'd quote what I said before in response to Tamyra and Mowgli. No one is saying that you can't talk to people who are worth talking to (in fact, at the moment, no one is telling you to do or not to do anything at all). But a new community has [b:451443682b]not yet developed[/b:451443682b] at the old site. When such a community [i:451443682b]does[/i:451443682b] develop, I agree that it would be worth revisiting this, as implied in my above post. Until then, you would be agreeing not to encourage trolls on that board just as if it were still this board. We are still the same community, and until such time as a new community develops there, the old board is still an extension of [i:451443682b]this[/i:451443682b] community - like a warehouse containing all our old stuff and all the rats who gnaw at our stuff and spread nasty diseases. What is being suggested is that you don't go into the warehouse, or at least, if you do go there, don't play with the rats. When the warehouse gets converted into luxury flats for yuppies, and Wayne and Barbara move in to the penthouse suite, by all means go and hang out with Wayne and Barbara if you want to. Of course, there will probably still be rats in the basement.
[quote:b9688bf775="Maljonic"]I don't think anybody is saying we can't post on other message boards, or even the HP message board in the future; it's more of a case of being upset that anyone from this community that belonged to the old one would want to even speak to the people that caused us so much upset in the first place. [b:b9688bf775]I don't think we're talking about banning people for posting there,[/b:b9688bf775]. (my bold - Pixel)...............[/quote:b9688bf775] Sorry, Mal, but I think we are - I have been tempted to post replies to some of the continuing attacks on us "Evil Ones" (I am assuming that the term applies to all of us who are so brainwashed and browbeaten that we willingly follow the Tripod to this place that doesn't have all those nice built in mod cons like trolls who can't be blocked and spam that can't be deleted) but all this does is keep the fight going, so that is a good reason to stop posting and treat the denizens (I like that word - it has a certain sinister sound) of the HC board with contemptuous disdain. The only other reason that people might want to post on the old board is that they actually like talking to the dastards over there (and "dastards" is not a typo - one can be born a bastard, but to be a dastard, one has to work at it) and if that is the case, why would we want them here? Edit - corrected "should" to "would"
Hang on hang on hang on... We're voting on making this a rule, yes, but we need to take things carefully. So far, there's five people in favor of implementing this rule for everyone one against it. That's a pretty damn good majority by any sandard. 80% of the vote so far. I think we can take this as sufficient data, really, but I'm content to let it go on for another few days. The NEXT step will be to talk about what sort of rule should come from it. that's going to be the tricky one. Is this a "warnable" offense? I think so. Now, we don't need to 'troll' over there to rile those guys up. they're obessing about us enough (no posts for 24 hours on the old site, and they say WE'RE going to implode? well done, mr irony!) as it is. ANY posts on that site will encourage them. HOWEVER, any posts on this site will encourage them as well. we're not dealing with rational people. They bump to get rid of us, they bump to keep newbies... they're GOOD at bumping. but I digress. We should leave them to bump each other. We should not post there. The community made a decision to move. The community has made a decision not to go back until such a time as a new culture might grow out of the ashes of our old one. [b:6ededa0690]I would like to say that we need to consider what type of community might grow up there[/b:6ededa0690] before we consider going back to say hello in the future, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it. Given that we've made these two decisions as a community, we need to ask how serrious a flaunting of those decisions will be. I'd say it warrants a simple "Please don't post there again, or stop posting on ours." If they insist on posting on both, i think that has to be taken as a bit of an insult. If they stop posting over there, then I wouldn't say this is a 'strike'. banning someone should only ever enter into it if they take a militant opposition to the community and its decisions.
I think we should also ban anyone who goes there to deliberately wind up them, or to put it another way, if they troll the trolls. Any trollish behaviour, on whatever site against whoever is still trolling, and as such should be frowned upon. Besides, if they troll on one site, it means they are equally capable of trolling ours.
Perhaps, but I wish we could ease up on talk of banning for the time being - this thread isn't about banning people, or even about trolling really. Just on whether or not we mind if our friends go back and post on the old boards that we left, and how we should react to it if they do.
*nod* exactly. We've discussed a no tollerance policy to trolling enough. this is DIFFERENT. I'd like to reiterate: since it seems we're going to institute this as a rule, how serrious do we want it to be? I'd say that it shouldn't warrant more than a polite reminder that we have left the old site, and so long as the poster involved does not continue to post there, there is not a problem.
[quote:2f10714d8a="Maljonic"]Perhaps, but I wish we could ease up on talk of banning for the time being - [b:2f10714d8a]this thread isn't about banning people[/b:2f10714d8a] (my bold - Pixel), or even about trolling really. Just on whether or not we mind if our friends go back and post on the old boards that we left, and how we should react to it if they do.[/quote:2f10714d8a] Sorry to keep disagreeing with you, Mal, but it [i:2f10714d8a]is[/i:2f10714d8a] about banning people - the poll question, which has 80% positive support so far (including my vote), is that we "require" people not to post on the HC site - this therefore means that we need a sanction against those who continue to either tease the animals so that they are not content with taking over the HC site but are goaded into finding ways of wrecking us here as well despite a functioning administrator - and there are ways - and those who actually want to be friends with people who see invading a functioning site that is managing to work despite spam (and how did all those spammers get our address? The HC board was getting more spam than my normal email, and that runs on about 15 to 20 spam to 1 to real) as a reasonable activity - the sanction that we have is to ban them - we do not need these people!
[quote:51b2bcd094="Garner"]*nod* exactly. We've discussed a no tollerance policy to trolling enough. this is DIFFERENT. I'd like to reiterate: since it seems we're going to institute this as a rule, how serrious do we want it to be? I'd say that it shouldn't warrant more than a polite reminder that we have left the old site, and so long as the poster involved does not continue to post there, there is not a problem.[/quote:51b2bcd094]I agree, I don't think anyone would carry on posting in both places, unless they were trying to annoy us on purpose, after we asked them not to. They'd either agree and carry on posting here, or go off in a sulk and not post here any more. If they carry on posting on both then they are moving into a different realm, the realm of Pixel, and beyond the scope of what this thread is about.
Heh.. "the realm of Pixel" ("And as a punishment, you shall be thrown into that place where Pixel reigns supreme, and he will deal with you as he sees fit... BEWARE!")
What a frightening thought! Pixel, I see your point about 'requirement', but I disagree with you. Requiring someone to do something does not say what the result will be if they do not. I agree that it would be worth simply giving a poloite reminder or request at first. It only becomes serious if their response is along the lines of 'fuck you' (whether that be in words or actions - because flagrantly going against what you were asked not to do is a silent way of saying of 'fuck you').
I've voted as the majority did. It's been said, but as this is probably one of the cases where everyone should give their reasons for voting the way they did, I'll state why: The old Board as it is now is not just "any board" - of course we should be allowed to post on any board and talk to any person we want to, generally. But that was, until recently, "our house", and we've been mobbed out of it by the majority of those residing there now. (Not half as "many" as it seems, I suspect. Noticed how everything's dead once Regicide has no time to post?) If anyone keeps still going there, paying a visit and bringing cookies along as if nothing relevant had changed, he pays those respects to those who drove us away. How that couldn't be expected to seem strange to us, I don't know, even though in Chris' case, I don't think there were any malevolent thoughts behind the posting. We should boycott them right now. We could still bring up the discussion again in the far future, should a few people have established a new community there. In the past, lots of things have been rediscussed and changed when the situation required it. Right now, there are only the sad remnants of past days and a few wannabes who didn't notice the curtains have dropped. As for the consequences, I'm not sure. I suppose there's no sense in declaring it an offense to this community and tying no consequences to it. But I'm, right now, tending to adressing each case, and see how the person reacts to it and explains their reasons. For example, I_Have_Come's way of posting there and the way Chrispenycate and the Jackal did quite differ, and I'd like to see them treated differently.
Curiously enough, as this thread's gained momentum, the old boards are showing signs of new life. If not for the fact that they all sound like Juggicide having a schitzophrenic conversation with himself, I'd say they're on the road to developing a new culture. This thread may rapidly become moot.
Moot in what way? And allow me to be wary of the new culture at the old board. The trolls have kept a close eye on this board. How can we be sure they didn't put some bogus accounts and/or some friends as a decoy? We are talking about people who spent four hours every day bumping old threads and called Tempus a hero while at the same time burying the thread about his dissapearance.
we're talking about people who, no matter how vile they are, are a minority. ASSUMING that juggicide is not responsibile for msot of the other people posting there right now, there's at least one or two newbies who seem to be settling in there. that's the start of a road that leads to a new culture. now, the point of not posting on the old boards because it's nothing but trolls and spammers is going to be moot if they do genuinely have a new community grow up... unless of course that new community still centers around the trolls, or adopts their views.
[quote:4ce570b1b3="Buzzfloyd"].........Pixel, I see your point about 'requirement', but I disagree with you. Requiring someone to do something does not say what the result will be if they do not.............[/quote:4ce570b1b3] OK, this is a fair point which was bothering me anyway - although I am personally in favour of the ban option because of the risk that if we appear not to have totally moved but still go back and continue arguments on the HC board, that the trolls will decide to try to chase us away from here as well - I know we have sanctions that can be applied, but given that many internet providers assign addresses on a changing random basis, so that a simple ban on certain IPs will not be effective, and given that Juggicide and Applestrudel seem, judging by posting times, to be two different people that has Mal outnumbered two-to-one already (let alone any other suckers they can get to help) and they seem to have far too much time on their hands - can we expect Mal to spend all his time fending off all these potential attacks? Actually, that sentence rather strayed off the point, but at this time of night I don't fancy trying to rework it - the point I want to make is that people from this community posting on the HC board are risking [i:4ce570b1b3]all[/i:4ce570b1b3] of us having to move again if we don't stick with our original plan (as I understood it) - "OK, we'll go where we can do our thing and let you stay and do your thing" You can call me paranoid if you like (the queue forms over there) but I seriously believe that we need solidarity here. Oh, and the original point - what bothered me was that no sanction had been specified against posting on HC, so demanding immediate bans struck me as a bit unfair, even though it was the punishment I favour.
I haven't voted yet, and frankly, I am too confused to vote yet. I don't visit the old boards, though I realize some still do. And I am completely in favour of not posting there. But to make it a rule? Should we give ultimatums like don't talk with him, else we won't talk with you? It sounds a little school-boyish to me! Besides, who is going to keep going back to the old board to check who is posting and who isn't? That certainly doesn't sound like ignoring the old board to me! So, to repeat, I haven't voted yet. I realize most people here have voted yes, but I am sitting on the fence here and reading the thread in its entirety hasn't helped much yet.
Well, we have got a little confused in our discussion as to whether we are talking about reading the old board or posting on it. The vote here is about whether or not we should [i:82d50a792b]post[/i:82d50a792b] over there. Personally, I don't wish to read the old board either, but I don't think much harm can come from others looking at it. The only problem is when people feel compelled to make commentary on what's happening over there. We need to stop that in order to stop them. I agree with Pixel's point about solidarity. Ultimately, anyone is free to do what they like; but society is when people do things for the good of a group in order that they might benefit from being part of that group. That's what you're being asked to do here.
That'a a good point, I think. Also, I could imagine posters posting here [i:95fb28422d]and [/i:95fb28422d]there being dragged into a kind of ping pong, as it happens when you're part of two circles who ultimately loathe each other. It's an unhealthy tie to the old board. Noone can be forbidden to do and say what he or she wants, but medium term, it would be better for this community if we could agree on not trying to belong to both boards right now. Seeing the trolls who drove us away are still the leading figures in the ongoing conversations -or maybe the only partakers- I can't really see how it should be possible to fit in both circles.
I would advise against posting on the old boards, but I would not tell someone not to. They are free to make there own problems. That said, I do not intend to ever post there again or post here about there in any meanful fashion outside of temple threads that address the old boards.
I'd be happy if this discussion in this thread was to be as far as it goes, that we don't make it a rule as such but agree not to post on there, which we pretty much have. I don't think there's any point in making it any more than a polite agreement amongst the old board members, we can use this thread to point to in the future to show our discussion for anyone who is confused about it. I think making a rule over it will be counter productive, seeing as it will only apply to old members and not the new ones who've never posted on either board, we'll have two sets of rules that can only cause confusion and division. I think it's better that we just forget about the old place for now, I don't think any of the old members are going to start posting on there after we've written all this in here, unless they don't want to be here anymore or they've had a lobotomy or something.
Well, I think this thread has shown the group consensus is not to post on the old boards. If nothing else, I'm content to let it lie here until such time as we need to visit the issue again, but for now everyone should have seen which way the wind is blowing
Yes, I agree - this is a good point to put the banning issue on a back burner for a while - we haven't voted it in, but we haven't rejected it out of hand either - it's early days yet - let's see how things go now that concerns have been aired. As far as [i:e56d3a9316]reading[/i:e56d3a9316] the HC board is concerned, I don't see that as a problem - there is a certain morbid curiosity about somewhere one has left under these sort of conditions to see what has happened since, but in general I think posting here as responses to what is happening over there should be avoided (for me, that's part of the "don't tease the animals" idea) - I say "in general" because some non-controversial comments may be acceptable - such as the fact that I noticed today that they seem to have acquired a Harper-Collins moderator - registered today! I presume this is not a fake, since the name appears in the normal places alongside the old 1998-registered "webmaster"!
