I agree with Mal.

Though I don't have any inclination to myself, I can understand why someone would possibly want to revisit the old boards.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]it's not that you sounded a bit angry, but rather just that you don't quite seem to know the situation you're commenting on.[/quote:98d770e484]Not entirely true, by asking around, I've built up a picture of what happened on the TP boards.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]we've never said 'you can't post on other discworld forums'. that would be ridiculous. however, for a number of reasons, many still valid, we agreed not to go back to the one we'd left. we also said that rule should never apply to people who join this site later on, because of course they weren't here to make that decision. it would be like us telling them where to post, instead of agreeing as a group not to go back to an old site. [/quote:98d770e484]Wasn't there that thing about not posting on the Stamps board as well? But what you are trying to say, is that whatever happens, you're going to visit the official Terry Pratchett message boards again, and you don't like it when other members do. Well, isn't that a bit like direspecting their ability to make decisions for themselves? Let's put it this way, tens of people sign up on the TP boards every day. It's a constantly changing community.
I know the kind of things that you're saying, because as I've said I've been through it on another board, and it doesn't solve anything by asking people not the post on the site that you don't particularly like. It's the official boards after all, and if these boards are slow any time of day (which, regrefully they have been) then I can't see why you can't have a gander at the other boards. It's not like dancing with the enemy. Fair enough, some of the people there might be prats, and might say 'I thought you left' and be all immature, but that doesn't mean anything, because we class these people as idiots.


[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]no one here is talking about going to post over thre to stir up trouble. that was, from day one, a forbidden thing. the issue is that by going over there to post, some of us would automatically provoke trouble even if we simply said 'hi, i've been gone for a while but i wanted to say that i thought Thud whas the best book yet'. if i did that, it wouldn't cause trouble from people who disagreed with my opinion, but from people who disagree with ME and my right to exist, basicly.[/quote:98d770e484]I wasn't suggesting that anyone was going to stir up trouble. I was just talking about another forum (it happened to be a Half Life 2 one) where that did happen.
If people disagree with your right to exist, then they're idiots. They're best left ignored. It's the internet, you tend to bump into a few proper charlies throughout the time you go on. Lord knows, I have.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]now, seeing as Jackal's spoken up, i feel kind of obliged to point out that he'd had some difficulty in understanding the 'no going back to the old boards' thing in the first place, but that eventually he did agree to our reasoning, or so i'd assumed. I appreciate that he asked if we thought it'd be okay before going to post anything over there. It's a valid question and deserves consideration. [/quote:98d770e484]
Can't argue with that.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]I think the main objectives we've heard so far are, by and large, not directly relevant to someone like Jackal going to post, but the issue still stands, the entire group of us agreed not to, so it's a bit odd if ANY of us break ranks, even if its someone who wasn't so tangibly involved in the polarizing issues. [/quote:98d770e484] I'd actually like to know the reasoning behind not going back.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]As has been said already, going back now in a way legitimizes the tactics of the person(s) who tried to destroy our community, and in a way is disrespectful to the unity and community that we struggled to forge and uphold. that starts to apply to people who weren't so involved earlier once they agree to it. [/quote:98d770e484]I can't see how this person you speak of would win because you do go back. It's not like this board was a failure. The whole reason s/he was doing what they were doing was to get you to bugger off anyway. So, if anything, you'd be likely to get them a bit agitated. But that's not causing trouble, if they are offended, then they can shut up and deal with it.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]and yet, at the end of the day, it's a free internet. you can go and post where you like. so can Jackal. I'd rather he not be a part of both boards, but I'd also not like to see him leave this site for good if he decided he really did want to post on the other one and couldn't feel free to post on both. [/quote:98d770e484]Makes sense.

[quote:98d770e484="Garner"]so, let's give it a day or so to see what folks have to say on monday (weekends are usually a bad time to try and resolve this sort of thing, as lots of people only check the boards from work) and see if sentiment might change a bit given we know who we're talking about now.[/quote:98d770e484]Right you are.

I never once said I objected to people posting on the stamps forum. In fact, I found it an excellent way to try and safety valve a core element of the old boards that clashed with the established culture there.

anyway, some of your comments CLEARLY show that you don't really know what used to go on in the bad old days, even if you think you've got a good understanding of it. I dont mean to be patronizing but, well, you don't get to wear lilac in your hair today, okay?

you're attributing a few attitudes and stances to me and the history of this community that aren't accurate or in some cases utterly wrong. this is not to say that your opinions are worthless, but just so you know if we don't respond to them positively, it's not because you had bad ideas but your comments were made on bad data.

stupid hitting the send button before finishing what i wanted to say:

reasons for not going back include, but are not limited to:

- community solidarity
- avoiding unpleasant people that have carried on a vendetta against us for five years
- unwritten social contracts
- written agreements and consensus

These have been stated more clearly than i can reiterate in previous posts. please reread the thread if you need to, but hsing's posts seem to have hit on most of it, and i'm sure anyone else can weigh in again with specifics if they are still needed, i've got a tendancy of just thinking i explained stuff properly.

if nothing else, consider that there IS a community consensus, that even teh most mild mannered of us would hold a person's return to the old boards as behavior that warranted a reevaluation of them as a person.

There was indeed never a kind of "ban" on the Stamps forum, not even a suggestion people shouldn't post there. We've got some regulars that are regulars over there. Some of them were linked there by Garner, if I remember correctly.

Besides that I can only repeat what I wrote in this thread. Back then, keeping posting there would have meant striking up a dialogue with someone who spent months of his life with trying to mess up the old board. I mean, your regular troll annoys the crap out of people with a few posts per day, but what happened there was simply absolutely bizarre. In an old thread I think I compared keeping posting there with not only making a creepy aqcuaintance, but with having a friendly chap with the bloke who just made you move out of your house by throwing in the windows - every night.

It appears said crapheads are gone. Erhem. That changes the situation a bit, or at least enough to re-discuss the issue.
My only apprehensions are as aforementioned in this thread.
But also as said, I suppose you have, in the end, leave it to each person. Seeing how long Jackal has been around, he'd probably know enough about all old faces to know how to weigh any comments.

I clearly remember that, in the original discussion about this, we stated that, should a new community come to live there, and should Regicide and the likes be gone, we might have to rediscuss the issue anyway. We're not too stubborn to take changes into account.

(By the way, looking back, I think that at the time it was a very healthy decision for this board, because if we hadn't concentrated on this place and moved on, but instead offered this as a might-be-opportunity, I'm not sure this site would have made it beyond it's first steps. )

I'd like to add, though, that like Garner, I wouldn't want to see anyone leave because of this, so I guess that it'll just happen as it will happen and then we'll see what happens...
It's a great complimet from the Jackal to the rest of us to actually want to know our opinion about this.

I don't post in the old site... but for thesis purposes I am required to check out whats going on there, although I am pretty lacks about this and only go there once a month-ish. I don't post there and I don't comment here about whats going on there.

They are two separate places and I treat them as such, I'm aware of the history so the fact that I have to visit the old site is for my own purposes and so as not to make it a community issue I am not involved in the old board, I merely look at what gets posted there to follow its development rather than out of personal interest...

(Can't you tell I feel slightly guilty about having to even go there neverlone if I actually posted and joined that community... oh the shame :oops: )

So, if it was a real world place, would you be wearing a trenchcoat, a wig and dark glasses? [size=9:9afb95a33d]"Hey... You... Shhhhhhhhhh! ...Yes, you! "[/size:9afb95a33d]

If someone DOES start posting on the old Board... and DOES end up at the crux of some nastiness... and the nastiness DOES end up following them here, to the Unseen Board...


...wouldn't our moderators be able to nip in the bud the kind of insanity that drove us away in the first place? Or would it be unfair to the moderators to burden them with that kind of damage control?

[quote:c6dd87910c="mowgli"]If someone DOES start posting on the old Board... and DOES end up at the crux of some nastiness... and the nastiness DOES end up following them here, to the Unseen Board... ...wouldn't our moderators be able to nip in the bud the kind of insanity that drove us away in the first place? Or would it be unfair to the moderators to burden them with that kind of damage control?[/quote:c6dd87910c]

They would, but yes, it's unfair to them. Banning would rest upon Mal's shoulders, and cosmetic control would take a lot of time.

Jackal: If you feel you must post on the other boards, I don't know if you had a link to this board in your signature..., if so, i would suggest changing or removing it. I would strongly avoid any mention of this board on there.

If there is a topic that interests you on the old boards, don't hesitate to post it here (Like Garner suggested) to get our opinions about it.

Most of the people I got along with on the old board moved here. The others moved to the Stamps forum. (By the way, Garner (and I think Buzzfloyd) asked to not post there in a specific thread, because the stamps mods asked to not bring the feud over there... No-one ever told anyone to not post there)
I have no connection to the old board besides the archives.

I have checked it out now and again myself since we've moved here- mainly to check old threads, but like some others have said I have felt a little bit guilty doing so! Personally I haven't wanted to post anything –as has been said there’s no- one there that I really want to be in contact with. But that's just me.

If the other board was still unmoderated I can see how there would be issues with people posting over there. The old trolls would probably have a field day!- I don’t know much about moderating (actually nothing!) but if the mods are about- Would the trolling, or ability to troll- not be less of a threat?

If someone wants to post over there I don't see why they shouldn't be able to. I know there are principals to withhold, and a general decision made by members of the community when Mal first put together the boards but essentially there's also free will. I think ‘fair- play’ to the fact that he asked the question from the mods here. It is a good idea to gauge reaction amongst people here to see how the feel.

Like Jackel says I don’t think that he should have to go there and post using a different name. It was done before by some of the old trolls – does no one remember the countless threads trying to work out who was who in terms of alias’s?

This is a great community, I like being here, as I’ve said before I enjoy the craic and discussion, but personally I‘m not going to start telling someone where they can and can not go on the internet.

What I fear would happen, even with one who was neutral in the... issues we had over the years, is that the interest of the old trolls would spark anew. It would start with little things, comments made to Jackal, asking him for his opinion on us and so on and so forth, and would probably go on nasty jokes about "escaping our evil will".

And will it end with that?

Consider that. I don't care about them talking about us, about this board etc. I care about them doing more than talking. If one of us who wasn't neutral started posting there again, then it would indeed be akin to waving a great big red sheet in front of a very, very angry bull. The question is, what would happen if it was just someone familiar who, while didn't openly identify with us, didn't openly identify with them, either? We're talking about obsessed people here, don't forget. Obsessed enough to spend hours each and every day to trash the old boards.

Keep that in mind. Personally, I'm not sure if piquing the interest of the old trolls is worth the risk.

The issue is simple - when we as a community moved from there to here, there were no "neutrals" - even those of us who had not been personally attacked, rather than just being annoyed and frustrated by the troll-bombing - we were showing our solidarity with the senior members of the community who [i:1066d4234f]were[/i:1066d4234f] being attacked - going back and posting on the old site now would be a weakening of resolve - especially given the behaviour of the moderator who so miraculously appeared - if I had been that moderator, my first action would have been to deregister and blacklist Juggicide and the others - but no, they were allowed to stay on the board. No-one is (as far as I am aware) advocating a blanket ban on posting on other Pratchett boards - I hope not, since I occasionally post on alt.fan.pratchett! - but the Harper Collins board is a special case for those of us who moved - newbits, of course, can post where they like.

[quote:ec646d28f7="Roman_K"]waving a great big red sheet in front of a very, very angry bull.[/quote:ec646d28f7]

Completely out of context: I've heard the colour doesn't matter, since cows are colour blind.

Honestly said, if there was a poll, I'd vote to let people post over there and find out what happens... And then meet decisions basing on that experience and adapt.
For the following reason: This seems to have the potential to become the kind of discussion we should get rid of as quickly as possible. If we have, one day, the first real row between members - the sort of row we want to avoid with our "policy", not a good honest quarrel - then it shouldn't have been us who started it.
Lets take the way that harms the community the least. That's what policy is there for.

[quote:a49e5fd036="Hsing"]Honestly said, if there was a poll, I'd vote to let people post over there and find out what happens... And then meet decisions basing on that experience and adapt.
For the following reason: This seems to have the potential to become the kind of discussion we should get rid of as quickly as possible. If we have, one day, the first real row between members - the sort of row we want to avoid with our "policy", not a good honest quarrel - then it shouldn't have been us who started it.
Lets take the way that harms the community the least. That's what policy is there for.[/quote:a49e5fd036]

First of all, "let" people post over there is not an issue - no-one as far as I am aware has suggested that Mal should check the HC board and blacklist anyone found posting there.

"And find out what happens" - dangerous - certain people took it upon themselves to make the board unworkable, simply because they took an unreasonable dislike to the way that self-policing of the board had evolved and was being operated by the senior members (and I am speaking as someone who has been slapped down on both the old and the new board!). These people were then allowed by the moderator who suddenly turned up after we had moved to continue on the board - I suppose you could call it spoils of war - I feel that going back and posting on HC could risk them deciding to invade us - and this is in addition to the implied agreement when we moved - the HC site is no longer somewhere that we want anything to do with! (I suspect Grace might have something to say about that sentence!)