Zoroastrianism is the classic example of Good vs. Evil. You have Spenta Mainyu, representing good, in an eternal struggle against Angra Mainyu, representing evil (there are other variations on this, but it basically boils down to good vs. evil). Encountering Zoroastrianism had a profound effect on Judaism, which previously lacked the dualistic themes (God was neither good nor evil). Satan was not previously a major player, simply one of God's servants in charge of tempting and accusing mankind. In the Book of Job, for example, he was essentially a member of the divine court, charged with looking for men's sins and bringing them to God's attention, like a celestial prosecuting attourney. He was unable to act without God's permission. This view was changed after the Jews encountered Zoroastrianism in Babylon. Now it became Satan who incites David to take a census of Israel, where previously it was God who did so. Satan was now an adversary of God as well as mankind.

And this was essentially a watered down version of Zoroastrianism's struggle of good and evil. Thus, Garner uses it as a yardstick for dualistic systems.

I thought it was Uhura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu.

Also, I know a Zoroastrian, which is pretty rare, since you can only be born into their religion, and it's dying out.

...

okay, spoilers continue here:

none of the forsaken ever demonstrate any 'good' qualities. there's only one who's demonstrated actions are not despicibly evil. his behaviors are, however, never 'good' or 'right', and while they benefit a protagonist, the motivations for doing so are fear.

let's be clear about something here, this guy, and all the other forsaken, sold their souls to 'the devil'. every last one of them was guilty of mass murder, terrorism, and attempted genocide.

they are CLEARLY 'bad' people.

now, before i go and say something i might regret, i'm going to have to point out that you've not even read the first half of the series and claim to have no intention of ever doing so.

i would urge you to rethink that decision before attempting to argue your point further.

I would just like to say you all have intrigued me so I will try to read this series soon as I can. Library, here I come!

Thanks, Ba and Buzzfloyd...you both have the destinction of being More Useful Then Wikipedia

I don't think I'm explaining my point properly...I certainly am not trying to sound like I'm telling you you're wrong for no reason. I simply feel that the majority of the story is not focused on a good-evil struggle. As for my intentions, when I have a inexhaustible supply of time and money, I probably will read the entire series again. Haha but reading something when I already know what happens is a little frustrating for me.

[quote:eab9f3a5db="Buzzfloyd"]I thought it was Uhura Mazda vs Angra Mainyu.

Also, I know a Zoroastrian, which is pretty rare, since you can only be born into their religion, and it's dying out.[/quote:eab9f3a5db]

Depends on which tradition one's looking at. Sometimes he's the equal of Ahura Mazda (as in the Zurvan heresy), sometimes Ahura Mazda is removed from the direct conflict, and it's Spenta Mainyu who opposes Angra Mainyu.

[quote:bdff1e0a94="allthatjazz"]I simply feel that the majority of the story is not focused on a good-evil struggle.[/quote:bdff1e0a94]

Well, you're about as wrong as its possible to be without creating a tear in the fabric of space-time due to quantum saturation of wrongness in every sub-atomic particle of your being.

but don't feel too bad, I had to read The Truth four times before i found it really funny.

[quote:69271f0344="Garner"][quote:69271f0344="allthatjazz"]I simply feel that the majority of the story is not focused on a good-evil struggle.[/quote:69271f0344]

Well, you're about as wrong as its possible to be without creating a tear in the fabric of space-time due to quantum saturation of wrongness in every sub-atomic particle of your being.

but don't feel too bad, I had to read The Truth four times before i found it really funny.[/quote:69271f0344]

And you've got to admit that that takes some talent.

No --ing way?! 8)

Ok, I am almost into page 200 of The Wheel of Time. I must say I am rather confused. But, if it's not all going to become clear, please someone, tell me now and I'll just put the book down. Mkay?

If you told Om, I will make up my mind as to wether I should put this on my birthday wishlist.

it gets clearer. some stuff doesn't get fully explained for books and books, but it gets explained.

[quote:7aca74d5ec="Ba"]Zoroastrianism is the classic example of Good vs. Evil. You have Spenta Mainyu, representing good, in an eternal struggle against Angra Mainyu, representing evil (there are other variations on this, but it basically boils down to good vs. evil). Encountering Zoroastrianism had a profound effect on Judaism, which previously lacked the dualistic themes (God was neither good nor evil). Satan was not previously a major player, simply one of God's servants in charge of tempting and accusing mankind. In the Book of Job, for example, he was essentially a member of the divine court, charged with looking for men's sins and bringing them to God's attention, like a celestial prosecuting attourney. He was unable to act without God's permission. This view was changed after the Jews encountered Zoroastrianism in Babylon. Now it became Satan who incites David to take a census of Israel, where previously it was God who did so. Satan was now an adversary of God as well as mankind.[/quote:7aca74d5ec]

I would like to point out that the original view never really changed. Satan is still not a major player as far as Judaism is concerned. There is no Enemy in Judaism, really. In Judaism, Satan is in charage of just what Ba mentioned, which makes him a celestial prosecuting attourney (which, I might add, is an analogy mentioned many times in Jewish writings of the very era Ba mentioned) who is constantly looking for business, so to speak.

The closest Jewish theologists have ever come to calling Satan the Enemy was to say that he may be a bit over-ethusiastic. That is, in those few cases they actually bother to mention him at all.

edit: I would like to mention that I just now noticed the date of the post replied to. A bit too late, really, but I didn't have many chances to read through the boards thoroughly until now.

Ok, I finished reading the Eye of the World and am about halfway through book 2.

Something's fishy with that woman rand met. I don't like it, nope, not one bit.

Wow,I do realize this thread is ancient,but I'll post here anyway.I've read book 1 through 7 and am on the dreaded number 8.I find it annoying because it doesn't focus enough on the characters I really like,i.e Matt,Ewgene,Elayne,Nynaeve and the Aiel,but granted,I'm only halfway through it.I found the first 3 or 4 books just so! exciting,I couldn't wait to find them in a library and actually only found them in a library 500 kilometers away.

I tell a lie,I'm on book number 7!