Wintersmith - Page 2

Katcal · **Wintersmith -** 10-11-2006, 20:22

Nostalgia

I've just ordered this, hope it will arrive soon...

inwig · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 04:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

Anyone read this yet? I have...

I did

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!spoilers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! highlight text to read

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

you miss granny even though you never met her. Also she shapes tiffany. you understand why Tiffany acts becuase we know how Granny Aching acts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith Spoilers!

That is part of growing up and moving on in life. Ask anyone who has lost a favourite relative 5-10 years later on. You gradually change your perspective from 'how would they want me to do this?' to just living. The groundwork is there but what you do depends on your own experience in the circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

I felt that Wintersmith, like Hat Full of Sky, suffered from having the 'threat of a threat' rather than an actuall one..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith Spoilers!

That's headology for you - all you have to fear is the fear itself. That's why Granny Weatherwax is so good. Tiffany is learning the truth of having a reputation is far more powerful than the evidence/act that built the reputation. That's not something that can really be taught. Most people are too wrapped up in their own view of the world to observe what makes them perceive it the way they do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

The book was about how the winstersmith was going to challenge her, rather than her actually overcoming challenges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith Spoilers!

You missed a crucial point there - the last stories were driven by someone else's actions causing Tiffany to deal with the consequences. This time the story centred on her making choices and taking responsibility for the consequences of those choices. She chooses not to listen to counsel or to ask more questions before acting. She also chooses to support and mentor a junior witch and learns an even more difficult skill to master - It's not what you know, but who you know. Social networking (a jargon term I hate by the way) is one of the most crucial skills that will keep you alive and sane. If you pass on your experience to those you know can benefit, and learn from those who are more or differently experienced the social group benefits as a whole and is made stronger. If there is a crisis you will already know who has the correct ability to sort out the problem - That's why Nanny Ogg was visited multiple times before she was ready in Thief of Time. A true witch will never stop learning or adapting to what they experience be they pig witch or boffo bought.

Rincewind · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 15:01

***************spoilers*************************** **********88

I don’t really disagree with any of your points. I understand why Tiffany is less inclined to think of her Granny as she grows up. But I don't think it makes for a better book. The 'Granny Aching' sections gave the books heart and warmth. The stories were embued with love and a saddness for something that was gone. I felt the absence of that in this book.

Again, I understand that the book was about how the wintersmith was going to challenage her, but again, I think the lack of challenages for her to overcome didn't make for a great read. Also, it build up the ending too much as well. In the end Wintersmith *didn't* really challenge her that much. The winstersmith was too vulerable a villain to do that. I aslo felt this was true of the hiver. Both of these people didn't really want to harm Tiffany, so we never really felt she was in danger. The Queen was a much your interesting villian in that respect.

KaptenKaries · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith and Harry Potter Order and of the Phoenix Spoilers!

Did anyone else think that that lady called Umbridge in Wintersmith, who was very friendly to witches, was a reference to Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, who is not very friendly to witches?

Edit: by Maljonic to fix code.

Rincewind · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 19:19

Just a question, do we ahve to spoiler everything? I mean this is a thread discussing a [i:4dc508f0d4]new[/i:4dc508f0d4] book. We should be able to talk about it without having to code everything. Or should I start a 'spoiler' discussion thread where people can talk about the book freely?

It seems to me if you open a thread called wintersmith you shouldn't be surprised if what happens in wintersmith is discussed... really we should just me coding meantions of other books?

What does everyone think?

Rincewind · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 19:21

In regards to the above post: i'd say know. It's just a common name. Pterry said he doesn't read much fiction, after all.

KaptenKaries · **Wintersmith -** 10-12-2006, 20:07

I spoilered it because

1) Kat said she was hoping it would arrive soon, so I thought I'd protect her.

2) My post contained spoilers from Harry Potter too.

Katcal · **Wintersmith -** 10-13-2006, 09:41

Awww thanks KK... but seeing as I don't remember a lot of bits from the books I have read, even the ones I've read tens of times, unless it's a major spoiler (like the death of .... at the end of ..... and the ... of ....) I don't mind, as the monkey said, it's a topic on Wintersmith, I'd be surprised if there weren't a few...

inwig · **Wintersmith -** 10-14-2006, 23:49

Ah hah. So that's how you do it. Thanks Kapten. Will go back and sort the other one out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KaptenKaries

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith and Harry Potter Order and of the Phoenix Spoilers!

Did anyone else think that that lady called Umbridge in Wintersmith, who was very friendly to witches, was a reference to Dolores Umbridge in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, who is not very friendly to witches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith and Harry Potter Order and of the Phoenix Spoilers!

Ooh its frustrating not having my books to hand. I can't remember if Dolores was married although I think there was a reference to rings on podgy fingers. The idea of Pterry giving sanctuary to refugees of the HP series appeals to me but at the cost of reading too much into an author's writing I would suggest the colloquial phrase - to take umbrage (offense) - meaning its a bit of irony that someone called Umbridge does not take umbrage at sheltering witches (Long lateral stretch is the umbrage caused by the media quoting the TP comments out of context too). There is the older meaning of umbrage which refers to shade or shadow under the branches of a tree. The reference I am twitching about is the names of the two aunts. My mythology memory needs refreshing aren't Araminta and Danuta more than just day-lily plant names. It's annoying me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rincewind

I don’t really disagree with any of your points. I understand why Tiffany is less inclined to think of her Granny as she grows up. But I don't think it makes for a better book. The 'Granny Aching' sections gave the books heart and warmth. The stories were embued with love and a saddness for something that was gone. I felt the absence of that in this book.

Again, I understand that the book was about how the wintersmith was going to challenage her, but again, I think the lack of challenages for her to overcome didn't make for a great read. Also, it build up the ending too much as well. In the end Wintersmith *didn't* really challenge her that much. The winstersmith was too vulerable a villain to do that. I aslo felt this was true of the hiver. Both of these people didn't really want to harm Tiffany, so we never really felt she was in danger. The Queen was a much your interesting villian in that respect.

Pedant alert. Skip this unless you have an interest in philosophy, analogous sociology, and character development in writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wintersmith, Wee Free Men, Hat Full of Sky, Hogfather and Thief of Time Spoilers!

Sorry, there is no easy way to make my points clearer without going into detail.
The first two Aching books did have that poignancy and sense of loss - the curse of a childhood lost, that you only realise has hit you when you look back with hindsight. There's only so many archetypes in the world, and the other witches - being the already formed adults - are sprung on us with the assumption that we have come across someone just like that.
This may be the first developing female character I actually have some respect for in Discworld. Susan has always seemed half baked and I'm waiting for the glaze to crack because I know that while she attended boarding school and lost her parents young, there isn't much more that you can know to explain how she knows the way to kill off the various monsters of the fertile imagination with such mercenary precision. OK she is Death's granddaughter and therefore it must be accepted as associated osmosis, but that logical indifference has always been a slight failing of her in my mind, in spite of her not so subtle battles to maintain her humanity.
Tiffany by contrast has changed from a self absorbed child with a knack for making cheeses but little else except hand-me-downs and a pain-in-the-neck brother to be proud of, into an almost ready for independence, highly observant, young person who is starting to deal with the afflictions of hormones. That isn't an easy transition to describe for any author. (It's harder for women writers to elucidate on because most of us have buried or modified those memories too deeply - along with the horror of the brats we were as we learned to become more human).

I'm going to take the villains on in reverse now. In Wintersmith we have reached a branching of paths and the point that many parents often fail to deal with when teaching the realities of life. What makes a man (or woman)? Is it just the physical chemicals as listed in the rhyme or is it the final stanza - the social interaction that really make us human. The Wintersmith represents the idea of an infatuation, purely the response to someone paying you attention (Which can prove such a danger to attention starved youngsters blithely using hex). Recognizing the difference between purely physical components and that more important mental compatibility is what causes so many relationships (friend/colleague/family/business/marriage) to fail. Your need for a certain type of companionship changes and you move on. Tiffany is observing the difference made by social grace in both the villagers and other witches without being able to realize fully how to apply it herself. The witch Tiffany starts with is called on by her people to judge. But what do we learn - the people really judge you by your use of boffo. And if you don't have someone supporting you the whole facade can collapse and bury you.

The hiver represented a different danger. If you just go around collecting other people's experiences and memories but don't know who you are, what do you really become. A collection of other people's memories and that achieves very little. It could have been taken as a representation of schizophrenia in it's worst form. Look at the witch she was with there - a split person who, thanks to Granny W not letting Tiffany comment on it, eventually proves that you don't truly know what you can achieve until you actually try. More concisely, knowledge without practical application is nothing more than theory. That is why Nanny Ogg was approached so many times before being the midwife in Thief of Time.

Then we get back to the Queen. The first Aching adventure. The first tale to read to your kids. (that was really Maurice) Of course it was an action adventure. There had to be a primal, well defined, baddie to appeal to the 7-9 year old in all of us. Good is good, and always defeats bad.

By the end of book three you should understand that in society there is no such thing as black and white, only dealing justly with the facts set before you the best way you know how. You can't deal with those facts if you have no experience. And bad and good are not the same as wrong and right. If this was an action hero they would have been books in one of the cities or the Feegles terms. Instead he is finally developing a far better third witch than Agnes and Magrat with their resentment to being inferior could ever be. I for one look forward to Tiffany developing further as the third multifaceted part to the ultimate coven. She has finally proved equal to the task of balancing things or Granny would not have allowed her the 'reckoning'.

The question that is waving from far out to sea is 'What socially deficient reprobate is going to rise to the challenge of taking on Granny, Nanny and Tiffany?' But that can only be answered after T learns that the people you know are the one's who can most easily turn you into a tyrant or a doormat. There will be a new balancing and it will be on her home ground methinks. The Baron's pain has already been dropped as a hint to where the story is turning.

And. What. Happens. To. Horace?

dididave · **Wintersmith -** 11-01-2006, 17:57

I do think Wintersmith is slightly weaker than Hat Full of Sky but then I actually preferred Hat Full of Sky to Wee Free Men. As the third book in the series I think Wintersmith offers more in the way of side characters (Miss Treason for example is a fabulously eccentric addition) but less in the way of the action of Wee Free Men. It also misses the "Tiffany analysis"/character delving of Hat Full of Sky. I suppose at the end of the day Wintersmith is as different from Hat Full of Sky as that was from Wee Free Men.

They all offer something slightly different.

Katcal · **Wintersmith -** 11-02-2006, 09:22

Finished it. Liked it. Horace Rocks !

So does You... It is different from other novels, as are all of the Tiffany Aching series, and I can understand that some people won't like them because of that difference, it's all a matter of taste I guess. But I for one had tremendous fun reading it, it was nice, light, funny reading, just what I needed right now.

Meep !

And now... back to Werk... :cooler:

frankie · **Wintersmith -** 12-23-2006, 00:55

Really liked Wintersmith - its very funny and also very sad - the Wintersmith falls in love and does what he (it?) can do to get the girl. So far this is my fave of the Tiffany Aching books.

Always wondered whether this series might make a film - it would appeal to both children and adults. The Nac Mac Feegle are hilarious and the stories are very accessible.

mr_scrub · **Wintersmith -** 01-01-2007, 17:07

Spoilers

I definitly prefered Wee Free Men to both Wintersmith and Hat Full of Sky mainly because Wee Free Men focused more on the Pictsies than either of the others. There is Wee Free Men at a library witin walking distance of my house. I read it when I was nine and i was really freaked out by all the nightmares in it. I think the idea of dromes was a stroke of genius. Hat Full of Sky was good but the actual threat wasn't much. the bit in the black desert was very interesting. But as Rincewind said it was more a threat of a threat instead of in WFM were the threat was extremely real.

Also has anyone noticed that there is no Tiffany entry in the discworld companion yet there is quite a long one for Miss Tick.

TiffanyAching · **Wintersmith -** 01-17-2007, 21:51

The Nac Mac Feegle and Tiffany Aching are easily my absolute favourites among the Discworld characters

I liked Wintersmith very much, Rob Anybody reading at the end of the book (and especially his choice of books!!) was hilarious, as were the Feegles (and Horace) singing 'Row, row, merrily, boat, stream...BOAT!', and them buying the Romance book for Tiffany (and her thoughts on it!) and You and the chicken*) !!!
I really had an especially good time reading this book and 'A Good Smoke in Any Weather!'

*) Werk...

Electric_Man · 03-17-2007, 16:00

Note: with all the discussion of spoilers, I'll be kind and tell people that they shouldn't read this post if they haven't read the book.

So I've finally read Wintersmith... after disliking AHFOS, I was preparing myself for the worst this time round, but I did enjoy Wintersmith. Not a Terry tour de force by any means, but an enjoyable read. There were bits that weren't so good, but were made up by other things.

Things I disliked:

Anagramma's transformation into Miss Treason: It seemed a bit contrived and conveyed that a witch could just get by with Boffo. Sure, Boffo helped Miss Treason but she had a lot of substance underneath that. It looked like Anagramma's substance just appeared with the Boffo.
You. Added nothing for me.
When I first read it, Chapter 1 engrossed me into the book. But after finishing the whole book I was confused about where it fitted in until I re-read it and the other appropriate chapters.

Things I particularly liked:

The 'love' quadrangle between Tiffany, Roland, Wintersmith and Summerlady and how the story was resolved with the kisses between the respective parties that didn't want to end up with each other - I think that sentence makes sense
The Feegles, back to full WFM glory, not relegated to comedy bit-part but had something really meaningful to get stuck into, that wasn't just fighting.
Miss Treason was a glorious witch, in every facet of the profession/calling.
Tiffany's interaction with all the other witches, in particular Nanny Ogg.

Overall, I still prefer WFM to Wintersmith, but this isn't too far off. Much better than AHFOS.

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