With the excitement over the upcoming TV adaptation, and a close friend repeatedly saying how Hogfather was his favourite Disc book by far, I felt compelled to re-read it recently. I had read Hogfather twice (I think) before, but somehow something about it had never quite clicked. I liked it of course, it was witty, entertaining and insightful as are all Pterry's books, but I wasn't particularly enamoured of it.

Re-reading it, it suddenly seemed to make sense. Taken in context, surrounded chronologically as it is by books like The Last Continent and Maskerade, you would expect Hogfather to be an equally light-hearted parody - but focusing on it for itself, it really is quite shockingly dark.

Yes, it's about Childhood and Fairy Tales, and Imagination and Christmas. But it's also about how none of these are quite as carefree and twinkly as they are often portrayed to be - this may appear obvious, but it took a while to sink in for me :roll: Ignorance isn't bliss, it's fear: Pratchett makes a particularly fascinating link between children and early man, both of whom are/were ignorant of why things happen, and have/had to invent beings and stories to explain what the hell is going on. Both were and are manipulated by those that know the alternative explanation - priests then, parents now - to control those who are ignorant through fear, into doing what they want. Consider Susan's rage at the childrens' former Governess insisting that the Scissor Man would cut off their hands if they bit their nails, etc.

Teatime himself is, in my opinion, the most terrifying character Pratchett has written thus far. Even Carcer pales into comparison with Teatime's psychotic violence......Carcer is, after all, an adult - someone who can be reasoned with. Teatime is still in essence a child. Amoral, revelling in violence for it's own sake, standing on beetles on the pavement and torturing puppies, oh yes. The sound of children playing is delightful, as long as you're not close enough to hear what they are saying....

Of course Christmas is coloured red and white: Blood and Snow. Of course humans need imagination, or 'wistful lying': if you can't believe the small lies, how on earth are you to swallow the really big ones like Truth or Justice?

Any book in which Death plays the hero, and an eyeball-fixated Raven and the Death of Rats are the comic relief has to be pretty dark, but bring such horrors as childhood into it, and there's no hope left at all.....


.........I'd be delighted to hear anyone else's views *Is expectant*

My View:

Its a good book, i've read and re-read it (like all my discworld books) about 20 times. I agree, teatime is a very scary and strange character. Does anyone think that he'll be in any other discworld books? He's got deaths sword, it can cut through anything, he would be the ultimate thief.

Um, wow, you seem to have covered it all.

I agree with Teatime being a much scarier character than Carcer, they were both psychotic and clever, but Teatime actually considered it. He planned his acts, whereas Carcer seemed to live more in the moment - he had some planning (i.e. lots of knives), but the fact that Teatime would actually sit down and think about how he would kill the Hogfather and Death is a whole different level.

Um, Teatime died... I don't think Pterry intends to set any stories in the afterlife.

did he? i was sure that the wizards revived him......

As we appear to have gone far beyond mere MINOR spoilers at this point, I feel I can say: Yep, they did, but then good 'ol Susan and her Poker did for him. Remember the boy finding his false eye in the fireplace? "It's my best marble......it seems to move in a different way...." *Shudders*

Also, I think Teatime was TOO scary to appear again, don't you? After all, Pratchett is in the humorous fantasy business, and Teatime is simply a character of nightmares.

....hell yeah. Carcer may always have had another knife, but let's remember Teatime was a trained assassin. Even if they did regret training him afterwards...

The book did have it's beautiful bits though, most notably with Death questioning those Christmas traditions he didn't agree with: he saved the Poor Little Match Girl, and told King Wenceslas to piss off, leave the poor wood-gatherer bloke in peace and get his charity-kicks elsewhere. Hear hear.

OK - Teatime is dead - but so are Reg Shoe and Mr Slant, among others - even Windle Poons for a while - Teatime as a zombie - now that's scary!

One question: I know Andersens match selling girl of course, and I can guess the story about the woodgatherer - still, I don't know that one. Can any of you point me to it?

Zombie teatime? lol, scary. He'd probably sit down and think of a way to kill Great A'Tuin, or possibly the Auditors, because he'd have the time.

Oh my god the mooosic!

I found Teatime to be horrifying as well, but actually not as bad as Trymon. Now, he was thrilling, with his black eyes and the creeps from the Dungeon Dimensions possessing him.

I quite liked Hogfather, with Ridcully and all my other favourite characters, but it wasn't my favourite.

There's a thought. I didn't even realise before that - of course - those from different countries might not recognise the cultural references that those in England or America would automatically. Blindingly obvious, but sometimes things like that need underlining before you notice :roll:

I'm trying to think of any other examples besides King Wenceslas......Hsing, were there any more you came across that left you slightly puzzled? Anyone else from even further afield?

The internet karaoke version of "Good King Wenceslaus"? How far can one go?

Tarnations! My computer is soundless! I want to hear this abomination! :o

Hm, surely... I have to think... I think one of the problems I had with Hogfather was not realizing a lot references, and often not even noticing it.
It was like that with Lord and Ladies, and yes, I did realize there was a lot of Shakespeare references - and they really were my smallest problem. But that is for another thread.

You see, until recently, there wasn't even a Santa Claus, but the "Christkind" ("Christchild") (strangely, an angelic looking girl, not a baby boy), she cam in the late evening of 24th and brought presents. No reindeers at all.
I think I'll take a closer look at this once I have a few spare minutes, and the book at hand.