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[chrisjordan]

Originally Posted by Cynical_Youth

I certainly don't want to imply that you were ganging up on her, just that it is experienced that way. I think the 'timing of the watches' image illustrates aptly how ridiculous that would be.

It's important to realise, however, that for someone who doesn't know that many people on the boards well (and that was certainly true the first time this arose), being in a conflict with a couple of established board members can feel very isolating.

For the record, at the time of that incident in the music thread, whatever differences we had, I considered Andalusian an established board member. I know this doesn't change how she felt, but there you go anyway.

You have a right to respond, but you also have a responsibility for what image you present to someone. You can choose to only respond to someone's negative posts, but there's still a choice there. You still choose to be critical.

I don't mean to say that you need to go around replying to someone's posts to be able to criticise them. I mean that if you choose not to socialise with someone, then do so. Don't just jump on the negative side. It then does not affect you.

When you criticise someone, you're tacitly assuming that you have an interest in changing their behaviour. In order to justify that assumption, their actions have to affect you.

As I'd never consciously ignored Andalusian's posts before these conflicts happened, it never occurred to me that I would only appear to be making something out of posts I had a problem with. That's my fault, I know, but I do read a lot of stuff that I might agree with or enjoy without feeling I have anything to say.

It might be, and probably is, that Andalusian and I have never really connected just because we're different people and therefore haven't ever found much to talk about. But, again for the record, the fact that I did consider her an established member does show, I think, that whatever differences in personality we may have, I've never been trying to reject her or push her out. I'll admit I was dismissive of her in my initial post in this thread, but that was because I felt she'd been overly dismissive of the objections raised, even if she did have a problem with them.

I'd compare it to going to another community and criticising someone there. Your criticism may be valid, but it's still uncalled for. Within a community, in the groups of a community, I think that can work the same way.

Again I'll say that every post I made was one I felt was necessary, not merely valid (whether it was initially voicing how Andalusian's posts had bothered me, or later giving reasons for or defending why I thought it was necessary to post what I did). Of course, whether they were actually valid or necessary is something people may disagree with. This is just what I felt.

Btw, I didn't mean to lump Doors, Ella and you together. It just seemed strange to indicate who I was addressing in graduations. These are broadly the parties involved, but it's not a line in the sand along which we have to line up and pelt each other with stones (or poo, if preferred).

I can't really speak for the other two, but I don't feel it was their intention to alienate Andalusian either, and I also don't think it's fair to say that criticising her is all they've ever done (although I understand it might feel that way to Andalusian). As far as this incident and the one in the music thread go, I think they were, like me, just objecting to something they had a problem with, and as people have reacted in certain ways, it has escalated. I would not say that they were personal attacks. No poo was flung with personal intent.

[Cynical_Youth]

Before I go into any sort of detail, I would just like to stress that I do not intend to say that anyone has a vendetta against anyone. I'm not talking about intent here.

I'm talking about the way things come across.

[KaptenKaries]

Originally Posted by Orrdos

KK, I had a look at that thread you linked to. To be honest, I was a bit peeved at the time of writing it, and I stand by the comment about the huge arrows being a giveaway. I did try and lighten the tone a bit with the dog vision man comment, which made at least one person laugh.

However, I can see how it could be a bit harsh, so i will offer my apologies for that

Thanks Doors. :-) I'm glad I got an answer.

[chrisjordan]

Originally Posted by Cynical_Youth

I'm not talking about intent here.

I'm talking about the way things come across.

I know. I've already acknowledged in my post the fact that things can come across in certain ways, and I understand that, but I think intent is still relevant. It can't all be judged on the perception of one party.

Edit to add: I'm not saying this is what you're claiming, but I am just trying to keep it focused on the full picture.

[Orrdos]

Ok, bottom line.

Vendettas aside, I don't think holding my tongue when someone is being a bit of an arsehole to a friend of mine is a winning plan.

I don't think that amounts to a constant barrage of abuse. Most people, being aware that they were a bit of a twat, would apologise for offence caused.

They would not go off in a huff, and leave their boyfriend to clean up after them. They would not blame other people for their failure to offer that apology. They would not try and make out that it's just some people attacking them, when it's blatantly not the case.

[Cynical_Youth]

Originally Posted by Orrdos

Oh, for gods sake.

I honestly don't dislike andalusian. based on the evidence I've got from this thread, I can't say I'm a huge fan either, but I certainly have no great dislike of her either.

She only ever gets grief from me and ella?

Fuck off. That's all I can really say to that.

That is the way you come across. It's not just Adele either, I honestly thought you disliked her. I'm not out to exaggerate it into a vendetta and make any assumptions about your intention, but there is a definite impression of a dislike beyond the indifferent.

Can we refrain from using expletives? They don't help.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

You know, I went back and read that music thread again, to see if we really did descend on her pack style.

And shockingly, no. No we did not.

Infact, she once again threw a tantrum. Spit out the dummy because she didn't like what someone said. No one made a personal comment about her at all, we had a disagreement on a song. A difference of OPINION.

I noted a severe lack of "andalusian! you've a fucking moron for thinking that!" posts.

I note a lack of "hey, adele, you smell of manure for not liking supermassive blackhole!" posts.

What I did see was opinions. For gods sake, if she cant differentiate between an opinion on a song and a personal attack, she's going to have problems.

For the record, here's the music thread, where I made that first scathing attack on her, then ella, Cj and ben continued to rip into her.

Honestly, Doors, I disagree. I don't think she threw a tantrum. There is a defeated, despairing post in there, yes.

She posted an opinion. The first response was "Incorrect!" and her opinion proceeded to be dissected by a number of people.

I don't think there was any intention of picking on her, but it's important to understand the impression it created.

I saw how hurt she was by the whole thing.

This is not about 'ripping' into someone or about blatant personal attacks. We're all mature people here. I do not think that any of you had any intent to hurt Adele. You did, though. That may have been a normal discussion to you, but it wasn't to her.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

I should also note, that I swallowed back my own feelings on her horrendous overeaction to make a post to try and stop her leaving, on request of coppe.

Coppe, I do appreciate you're not in a great position. I also don't dislike you. Infact, quite the opposite.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

I am slightly agog that andalusian thinks me and ella only ever attack her. I'm used to that sort of accusation, but ella?

Well, I've done my best to explain why I think andalusian was out of order on this thread, in the music thread and why I think she's just plain wrong in thinking me and ella have some sort of vendetta against her.

Oh well.

Again, there is a difference between creating the impression and having the intent.

I recognise that I needn't have addressed Ella. I don't mean to draw her in.

[Cynical_Youth]

Originally Posted by Orrdos

Vendettas aside, I don't think holding my tongue when someone is being a bit of an arsehole to a friend of mine is a winning plan.

I do. Refer to my argument about assumptions of interest. You're essentially coming out of the woodwork to criticise someone. You have a right to, but the impression it creates is not warranted.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

They would not go off in a huff, and leave their boyfriend to clean up after them.

I would appreciate it we could keep comments like this to a minimum.

She did not leave me to do anything. I chose to do this. We've talked about it. It's our business.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

They would not blame other people for their failure to offer that apology. They would not try and make out that it's just some people attacking them, when it's blatantly not the case.

It's not about the apology at all. She has no problems apologising. We both regret Mal got dragged into this.

[Cynical_Youth]

Originally Posted by chrisjordan

For the record, at the time of that incident in the music thread, whatever differences we had, I considered Andalusian an established board member. I know this doesn't change how she felt, but there you go anyway.

She seemed like an established board member for being around for a long time, but at the time, there were few people she really knew here.

[Orrdos]

In terms of "incorrect", I think the tone was picked up on wrong.

"Incorrect, Marge, 2 perfectly good jackets!" was more the tone i wanted there.

So yeah. That post I made was not without its humour. I'm prepared to chalk that one down to a misunderstanding on her part though.

However, it's a music thread. It's full of opinions. If you're not prepared to have your opinions "dissected", then you vocalise them.

Look at Kenny. He's always banging on about Robbie Williams being a god. We're always taking the piss out of him for it. Does he get all upset?

To be frank, if some people disagreeing with her over one song upsets her that much, I'd be concerned about her if something important came up.

Apologies on the swearing. I was that thrown by the idea that I do nothing but attack her that I could only think to respond with an emphatic phrase.

[Cynical_Youth]

Originally Posted by Orrdos

In terms of "incorrect", I think the tone was picked up on wrong.

"Incorrect, Marge, 2 perfectly good jackets!" was more the tone i wanted there.

So yeah. That post I made was not without its humour. I'm prepared to chalk that one down to a misunderstanding on her part though.

However, it's a music thread. It's full of opinions. If you're not prepared to have your opinions "dissected", then you vocalise them.

Look at Kenny. He's always banging on about Robbie Williams being a god. We're always taking the piss out of him for it. Does he get all upset?

No, because you know each other. If three people you don't really talk to pop up to criticise your opinion, in a way that is not clearly humorous (although certainly in the first post that relies on a misunderstanding), the impression is different. (Again, assumptions of interest.)

And it was the impression created.

Originally Posted by Orrdos

To be frank, if some people disagreeing with her over one song upsets her that much, I'd be concerned about her if something important came up.

Ow... again, is this necessary?

[Rincewind]

Originally Posted by Cynical_Youth

She posted an opinion. The first response was "Incorrect!" and her opinion proceeded to be dissected by a number of people.

.

People didn't say that her opinion was 'incorrect.' Just the impolite way she expressed her opinion. Which showed an massively inconsiderate attitude towards someone we should all be extremely gratefull towards.

If she said "Thanks for all your hard work Mal. But I prefered x,y,z, is there a way it could be changed without causing to much hassle" No one would of said a thing.

People wheren't attacking her personally. A number of people, just as grace expressed there disappointment towards her attitude, not just people that Adele (sp) has problems with.

[chrisjordan]

Originally Posted by Cynical_Youth

I do. Refer to my argument about assumptions of interest. You're essentially coming out of the woodwork to criticise someone. You have a right to, but the impression it creates is not warranted.

I fully agree that the way the message comes across is something that needs to be considered, and I'll definitely be considering it more when posting here in the future.

However, about impression and perception: I feel too much emphasis is being placed on impression here rather than perception. I don't think we can rule out the possibility that Andalusian's perception might have been an overreaction or exaggeration. Those posting messages do have to take responsibility, but while it's easy to see how Andalusian might have felt the way she did given your reasoning, that doesn't mean that the recipient is free of fault in the way they interpret it or react to it. There's only so much accountability that can fall on the shoulders of the one who made the post here.

[Cynical_Youth]

Rinso, that referred to the music thread.

CJ, I definitely agree that perception should not be overlooked. I hope that in stressing impression, it does not seem as if I'm attempting to assign blame. I'm just trying to bring clarification here.

[Orrdos]

I don't doubt for a second that you're defending her off her own volition. However, she should have been aware that by flouncing off, it'd leave you a bit in the firing line, and that you'd feel compelled to speak up.

I do have to say though, the woodwork?

What?

I've been here for more years that I can remember, I've known Mal for all those years and I moderate the thing.

It's not like I never post except to leap out and strike down the rude people of the world. I also post about my comic.

And yes, it is an issue about apologising. Regardless of how she feels about what I and others said, she is aware she hurt Mal.

Yet, instead of saying this before going off, she blames us for stopping her, somehow.

I don't recall hacking off her fingers, so I'm sure she could have said it on her way out.

Also, rinso: The "incorrect!" post was in the music thread, not this one

[chrisjordan]

Originally Posted by Cynical_Youth

Rinso, that referred to the music thread.

CJ, I definitely agree that perception should not be overlooked. I hope that in stressing impression, it does not seem as if I'm attempting to assign blame. I'm just trying to bring clarification here.

OK. Thanks for that.